Discover the “hidden menu” of facility management in this episode of Connected FM. Host Osama Aduib sits down with fellow ISS colleagues Paul Ratkovic and Amelia Ekus to explore how engineering, data-driven innovation and hospitality come together to create seamless, empathetic and proactive workplace experiences.
Host Osama Aduib from ISS Facility Services sits down with his colleagues Paul Ratkovic and Amelia Ekus to discuss the “hidden menu” of facility management.
The conversation explores how invisible systems, operational decisions and hospitality-focused thinking shape the workplace experience in ways occupants may never notice directly, from HVAC and lighting to food service, cleanliness and comfort. Paul and Amelia share insights on empathy in facility management, anticipatory service, workplace innovation and how FM teams can create seamless, people-centered environments through collaboration and intentional design.
They also discuss the role of technology, AI and data-driven insights in supporting proactive building operations while emphasizing that hospitality, human connection and emotional intelligence remain at the center of exceptional workplace experiences.
This episode is sponsored by SiteMap®, powered by GPRS. Learn more at sitemap.com/ifma
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Timestamps:
Amelia Ekus: [00:00:00] As we look at where the innovation space is really exciting, in my opinion, it's in the anticipatory space. So tools, technologies, processes that can help us better anticipate where the needs are going to be before they ever happen. And it's so simple.
It's just about making people feel seen. It is, there's no right or wrong. It's I see you and I can identify your needs even sometimes before you know what they are, if we're doing a really good job, which is the most fun, hospitality that we could be doing.
Host: Welcome to Connected FM, a podcast connecting you to the latest insights, tools, and resources to help you succeed in facility management. This podcast is brought to you by IFMA, the leading professional association for facility managers. If you are ready to grow your network and advance in your career, go to ifma.org to get started.
In today's episode, host Ossama Aduib from ISS [00:01:00] Facility Services sits down with his colleagues, Paul Radovic and Amelia Agus, to discuss the hidden menu of facility management. They share how engineering, hospitality, and workplace services come together to create a seamless occupant experience through empathy, anticipation, and service-driven operations.
They also touch on the role of technology and data-driven insights in supporting proactive building operations while emphasizing that hospitality and human connection and emotional intelligence remain at the center of exceptional workplace experiences. Now, let's get into it
Osama Aduib: Welcome back to IFMA's Connected FM podcast, where today we're exploring systems, strategies, and the people behind exceptional environments. I'm your host, Ossama Adwat. My journey actually into this industry actually took a couple of turns when I moved from traditional hospitality, running, [00:02:00] uh, large portfolios of boutique hospitality platforms from hotels, restaurants, uh, co-working spaces, et cetera, and, uh, moved into the world of facilities management.
I remember during those conversations speaking to individuals about this strange new world of facilities management, asking myself what this was, and then coming very quickly to the realization that I had actually been doing facilities management my entire career, or rather, that those in the world of facilities management were doing what I refer to as hospitality.
They just insisted on calling it this very unsexy name, uh, facilities management. Again, realized very quickly that they're one and the same. I saw that these firms were in fact providing what I considered my bread and butter, hospitality. Today, we're diving into the concept of the hidden menu. It's everything occupants feel in a building, the comfort, the cleanliness, the ease with which they move through a building, and the fact that it actually recognizes what they need when they need it.[00:03:00]
Individuals rarely see the work that goes into it. It's the airflow that they never notice, the lighting that feels just right, the absence of noise or the quality of the food service. Joining me today are Paul Ratkovich, a lifelong IFMA member and a senior engineering and solutioning leader for ISS, and Amelia Ekis, vice president of innovation for ISS and their food division, Guckenheimer.
So let's start with the basics. How would each of you define the hidden menu in the context of the workplace? Paul.
Paul Ratkovic: Yeah, it's kind of interesting, right? Because buildings are complex, full of complex systems, HVAC, electrical, plumbing, and, and the hidden menu in that context has those systems working for the building occupants when they need them.
At its core, facilities management, as you said, is a service industry. That's what we do. That's what we do down to our, our base and what we believe in. And really because of that When we view the industry through that lens, it brings us to [00:04:00] a really interesting place of not just turning wrenches, but why we turn wrenches.
And, and that really gets down to, to this hidden menu concept of why we do what we do, both in the technical space and in the softer space of serving the building occupants.
Amelia Ekus: Osama, for me, the hidden menu is really about the millions of decisions and processes that go into every single day that create seamless, frictionless experiences.
It's, it's the smell, it's the sights, it's the things that you kind of have to create the feeling that maybe are not the most visible, but all of those millions of decisions that go into creating a really important experience for somebody.
Paul Ratkovic: And really it's like there's this concept of when folks are in a building, you're connected to the building, they're connected to the building, therefore you're connected to the building occupants through what you do every day.
And something as easy as changing a filter has an impact on a meeting three months from now. And when it comes to the technical side, it is really, truly hidden. The best way [00:05:00] you know you're doing a good job is if building occupants have no idea those systems exist.
So really, it, it's, it sparks a really truthfulness when you talk about hidden menu when it comes to operating and maintaining buildings.
Osama Aduib: That's so interesting, Paul. You, you and I have talked about this before. Again, coming through or from my kind of hospitality obsession or hospitality lens, I actually think that engineering is the most hospitality thing that can be done because hospitality is, to me, nothing more than preparing for people to be in your building.
And who prepares more than engineering? They're sitting there with the foresight six months in advance, a year in advance, while they're doing their PMs, again, turning those wrenches, recognizing that there will be a time in the future that the events team might try to stuff 200 people into a room that's supposed to only hold 100.
So it's really just about putting that forethought into it and ensuring that at the end of the day, we're delivering for people.
Paul Ratkovic: Yeah, it, it really is, and, and I think that's where, you know, one of the biggest, quite [00:06:00] frankly, risks in the entire facility management industry is the possibility of becoming commoditized, right?
And the quickest way of doing that is to be just turning the wrenches for the sake of turning the wrenches. And that can be changed and swapped out, but what really drives value in facilities management is, is, like I said earlier, the why. What is the outcome? What are you supporting by doing what you're doing?
A family is impacted by the service that your building serves by do- there's a whole domino down the line, and that's really at the core of what drives the value of the hidden menu, but also kind of the concept of facility management through a hospitality and service lens, as opposed to something that can, that kind of skip, you know, fit more into that commodity space.
Osama Aduib: And Amelia, you said something earlier about frictionless.
Amelia Ekus: Hmm.
Osama Aduib: So there's this obsession in a lot of organizations, in a lot of industries about making experiences frictionless, and sometimes I wonder if it maybe hasn't gone too far. [00:07:00] Again, uh, for me, it's like sometimes friction is kind of what makes this whole world go round.
It's the moment, frankly, when pen meets paper or brush meets canvas or two hands touch each other that spark a relationship. I mean, it's, it's-- There's a difference between bad friction, obviously, like you walk into an office and you have to log on to the Wi-Fi again, or, uh, the front desk, uh, takes too long to process your badge when you, uh, maybe have been gone for a week or two weeks.
Uh, but there's also good friction, and I think we have this opportunity to present good friction or offer opportunities for good friction. There's these moments along the way that we can determine Any thoughts on that?
Amelia Ekus: Yeah. I mean, friction for me is an opportunity. So of course, we've idealized a frictionless experience, but there are moments where that friction, as you said, is the thing that creates the magic.
Often in the food space, we hear of stories where people have met in line waiting for lunch or sat at a table next to each [00:08:00] other at lunch because there was nowhere else to sit, and that moment of friction turned into a major product launch or a major moment of collaboration. And so when we think about kind of what's on the menu, how might we look at those moments of friction and turn them into an opportunity?
What can we do to create experiences that take that friction and turn it into that inspiration and that spark? Is it a thought starter on a table tent? Is it somebody walking along the line and introducing people to each other? "Oh, have you met Osama? Paul, you'd get along great with him." I think that's where the hidden menu really gives us the opportunity to think creatively about maybe those moments of friction can, can be some- can be- become something else.
Osama Aduib: Yeah. Yeah. That forethought, that planning really ensures that, uh, we can make any friction into good friction. Paul, from an engineering standpoint, which building systems do you think have the biggest, uh, emotional or sensory impact on occupants?
Paul Ratkovic: Yeah, I mean, you know, the most [00:09:00] common one is gonna be your HVAC system.
It's, you know, it's the classic hot/cold calls and what you do with those, and arguably, you know, in any technical world, the other one is gonna be anything having to do with water, 'cause water has the propensity to cause the most damage kinda no matter what. You know, the phrase is, "Water finds a way." It loves gravity.
When it's not where it's supposed to be, it's gonna find a way where it's not supposed to be. But really it's th- that concept of HVAC and kind of the silent systems in the background that are running, it offers the opportunity for a sense of empathy, because what you can't do is you can't argue with somebody's experience.
If somebody feels cold, they feel cold. You can't look at them and say, "Well, the temperature says 72, and that's our standard." That's not, that's not the type of conversation that that person wants to hear. Think about how you wanna be treated in that moment and say, "I get that. Let me take a look, and let me see what's going on."
And it could be any other number of reasons, whether it's somebody's fan two desks away that they're not supposed to have is blowing across and making it cold, or whatever else. It doesn't matter. [00:10:00] But there's an element of empathy and validation to the occupants that is part of this kind of hidden menu concept that connects people back to the workplace and back to, to you, and it gives you an idea to remember, or an opportunity to remember really who the customer is.
On the technical side, you often get wrapped up in the fact that doing that PM and turning that wrench, that that equipment is your customer. And then sometimes you think that maybe the building owner is your customer. But at the end of the day, it's the people that you're supporting inside that building that are doing the work that are your actual end customer.
They're the ones that you spend the most time of your day impacting. And really, that's, that's the, that's the thing that gets down to it, is it gives people who you may not think need to be empathetic an opportunity to relate to the folks in the building and create those kinds of healthy friction, right?
And, and when you do it through a, through a lens of empathy and, and hospitality and care, it gives you an opportunity to build relationships inside the building, and you just never know who you're gonna come across at that [00:11:00] point. And for the technician or the more technical FM person, it brings their brain back to why it is we do what we do.
And it's not just about-- It is about making the equipment last as long as possible. Absolutely. Don't get me wrong. But there's another element to this that brings the service to a higher level. You know, it, it's interesting. I, I, you know, I'm lucky enough to work with the, with the both of you, and right now our organization is putting on, uh, a monthly webinar about emotional intelligence.
And, you know, I think about that and I'm like, "That's really fascinating." What does that mean for us as an industry, both on the hospitality side, on the technical side, on, on whatever side, that there are organizations in the world saying, "We want our workforce and our employees to think about it from that perspective"?
And really, I think that that's really, really fascinating to me because again, I wanna make sure this industry thrives and keeps moving and transforming, but not losing touch with what [00:12:00] we are and who we are and why we are.
Osama Aduib: No, that's a great, uh, that's a great example, especially the HVAC. If we could solve that problem, Paul.
But the reality is, is again, sometimes you do have to listen. I remember starting up a new account where the complaint around temperature was consistent, and we just found out that it was a simple, a, a simple situation in which, yes, in fact, the thermostat did read 72, but that's because the reader was right next to the vent.
It's for that, yeah. And so of course it was registering that. But the individuals that were sitting, you know, 40, 50 feet away weren't necessarily getting the impact of that. So we reassessed. We obviously moved the, uh, the readers and, uh, we were able to address and, and, uh, kind of find a solution for that.
Paul Ratkovic: And one, one more point about that, just real quick that's really interesting to me, and one that I learned really early in my career, is that the other part that's really important to remember, especially on the technical side, is nobody else that works in that building has an education or experience in facilities management, by and large, right?
They just don't. They're not technical people. It's [00:13:00] people in finance, people in HR. They just... They're... It's not their business. So, you know, one of the classic things that happens is you look up in the ceiling and there's an air return that's bringing the air from inside the building back to the system to reprocess, right?
And it's dirty. Shouldn't be dirty, but sometimes it just is. When an employee is sitting there that doesn't know that that's actually the air being sucked back up into the system and not being blown out, they get a little upset that they're... or, or they start to think that they're breathing dirty air because they can see the dirt being sucked back into the system.
Now, so things like that where you have an opportunity to say, "Oh, I totally understand what you're saying. Let me explain how this works. And yes, we do need to clean that. Thank you for pointing it out. But let me just give you a little idea of what that is and why that is that way. And yes, I'll get that clean.
But it's not that it's blowing out, it's that it's actually our dirt going up into the system." And things like that really, again, back to this healthy friction conversation, it gives you an opportunity to say, "Hey, I'm not trying to teach you anything. I'm not trying to, you know, profess anything. I'm [00:14:00] just trying to say, 'Hey, let me just explain this to you real quick and I'll, and I'll get right on that for you.
So thanks for pointing that out.'" And that just gets people more connected, and then they get to go home and see the return vents in their home and like, "Oh, that's why I change that thing you know, every quarter or whatever." So, you know, it just another conversation around just, like, that hidden stuff that it's not their job to know it, and that's okay.
And we can be that, that conduit for that kind of relatability conversation.
Osama Aduib: Absolutely. Well, Amelia Being the VP of innovation
Amelia Ekus: No pressure.
Osama Aduib: No pressure. In facilities- Got it ... operations, how do they support these, kind of these technical factors? How do innovations do that? How do they support?
Amelia Ekus: Yeah, I mean, we see a lot of the standard things in terms of carbon reporting, induction cooking, biophilic design.
I think everybody's kind of seeing that. As we look at where the innovation space is really exciting, in my opinion, it's in the anticipatory space. So [00:15:00] tools, technologies, processes that can help us better anticipate where the needs are going to be before they ever happen. And Paul, I just love what you said about the empathy piece because, you know, when I think about hospitality and, and that's kind of my, my background as well, I- it's just, it's so simple.
It's just about making people feel seen. It is, there's no right or wrong. It's I see you and I can identify your needs even sometimes before you know what they are, if we're doing a really good job, which is the most fun, hospitality that we could be doing. And so what I'm loving about the innovation space right now is that we're taking all of the new-ish capacity that we have to ingest data, produce insights, but then turn that into how we anticipate what occupants and guests and users are gonna need in their space.
And so it's a really exciting space. And it means that we can be so much more proactive in terms of how we're managing facilities. So there's a, there's a famous sports analogy around kind of [00:16:00] going to where the puck is going to be that I've heard referenced before, while not my typical area of expertise.
It's, it's really about that. It's about what are you going to need and how can we be there and be supportive for you in that space. So we're seeing a lot, of course, you know, you can't get through any conversation without talking about AI, but we're seeing AI enable that and, and the piece on that is that what AI can't replace is, is the judgment and the taste.
And I-- we can get into an argument about creativity, but particularly in those three areas, this process of analyzing and using data to be proactive enables us as humans to have really incredible opportunities to meet people where they are and maybe even be there first. And that is what I'm most excited about.
Osama Aduib: Fantastic.
Paul Ratkovic: I, I love, I was just thinking about the sports analogy and, and I'll, I'll turn it, I'll turn it into a, like a restaurant analogy, right? Uh, you're sitting there, you're, you're eating and you
Amelia Ekus: drop- Uh-huh ...
Paul Ratkovic: yeah, right? You, you drop a fork and all of a sudden you turn around, there's a new fork on your table, right?
Yeah. And you turn like, like, [00:17:00] "Geez, they, they were on that," right? And because your first thing is you're looking around to ask for one, and they're like... The stuff like that is re- but, you know, being where the puck is gonna be, all that stuff, just the anticipation of being where you need, where your customers want and need you to be, even if they don't know it, even if it's something they did, right?
But it's, it's irrelevant what the root cause of whatever the issue was, as long as you're there to catch it. And that's, those are the hallmarks of, of, of being in this industry and being of service to people and places, right? And that's just really, it's an intensely powerful... And the, what's not crazy but interesting is we've all felt it.
Everybody on the planet's felt it. We've also felt when it's not there, and those are the times where you hear about it. Again, it's a classic service industry, right? So in any given day, you're gonna get that kind of feedback. You're not always going to be there How do you deal with that? And what do you do [00:18:00] to make the experience what it can and should be for your customer in the building is j- is really where it's at.
So whether you're shooting hockey pucks or you're dropping forks or you're just trying to anticipate the next move, it's, it's really very much the same concept that, that's rooted in, in that service concept.
Amelia Ekus: Absolutely agree with that.
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Osama Aduib: I'm [00:19:00] appreciating this conversation around anticipation. What does it look like when engineering works invisibly trying to create this frictionless, when appropriate, journey?
I mean, what kind of anticipation are we looking at?
Paul Ratkovic: Well, so you know, it, it's really built around the strategy for, for maintenance and things like that. So how do you make sure that you're putting the right person at the right place at the right time? And that doesn't mean that every single issue needs to be res- you know, responded to in 15 minutes, but the ones that do, you need to make sure you get there.
Just like anybody else's workday though, right? When you get an emergency in the middle of the day to go address, it means that something else is being left off the table. And to me, the biggest risk is anticipating through data, technology, sensors, what you can, when things might happen, so then you can do the planned stuff during the day.
That is your core job, to keep the building running and keep the building operational. But everybody feels that in their workday, right? Like all of a sudden a meeting gets dropped in your calendar that you weren't expecting to do, and you gotta scramble for 20 minutes and get something [00:20:00] done when you were working on a budget for something or whatever.
It doesn't matter. But everybody knows that and feels that. So the concept of minimizing that kind of break, fix or, or respond to something that's on fire because you've done all the work and you've used all of your technology and data to try and get out ahead of that, the better off the experience is inside of that anticipatory space.
That's really, that's really the crux of it for me, is, is the more you can let... And it's technicians, it's anybody else in the world. The more you can let them do the job that they're, in their mind, they're there to do that day, the better that product's gonna be. And they'll deal with the fire, no doubt.
But the fewer of those, the more you can, you can really get cranking on the stuff that builds that anticipatory need.
Osama Aduib: So I'm hearing people. Amelia, you wanna talk a little bit about kind of the people component of this, um, of kind of this mindset?
Amelia Ekus: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that What it boils down to when it comes to hospitality is it's not about-- We often have [00:21:00] this belief that hospitality is about an individual person acting above and beyond.
And while that happens, and it is important, what is a enabler of that at scale is being able to actually create that culture of hospitality, and that is enlivened by and that is brought to life by people. And so of course, training is, is super key important to-- a, a super important part of that. But in addition to training, it's also about how these teams interact with each other.
So Osama, you talk about the engineer being the ultimate hospitalitarian because they have to anticipate the needs of folks in their spaces. And so the magic for me really happens at the intersectionality when the engineering team is talking to the cleaning team is talking to the food team. And if you then have your people who know your guest journey and your occupants' needs best take a look at that from the perspective of the guest, you can really identify how the space [00:22:00] looks, feels, acts, and how it serves them.
And so the people is your key resource for your input into how people are interacting with your space and, and in that way, they're your most important, um, source of information and your most important tool to bring hospitality to life.
Osama Aduib: So th-those people then are using tools. They might be using building data, sensors.
Talk to us about how perhaps, uh, we keep those issues invisible, that information invisible, but then act on that information. Amelia, why don't you go with that one?
Amelia Ekus: Okay, sure. So I think there's a lot of inputs of information right now, and the most important thing is what you do with that information. So of course, we're utilizing sensor technology.
We're using preventative maintenance. We're using all kinds of predictive analytics and all of that. And so you wanna try and get as much information out of the tools that you have available, but then you wanna give that information back to your teams in, um, a digestible way. [00:23:00] And so it's, "Oh, well, we have all of these people moving in this space.
Okay, what do we do with that information?" We can think about the temperature in that space. We can think about the level of joy in that space. We can think about what the experience is of walking through it at those times and send people into that to say, "What does this feel like, and how can we make the experience better?"
So I think it's really about using the data and then combining it with the human piece to really make sure that we are asking, "What could we do better?" Where could we eliminate friction? Where could we take the opportunity to turn friction into a moment of inspiration?
Osama Aduib: Paul, from your perspective, kind of coming from the engineering point of view, or when you're solutioning, for example-
Paul Ratkovic: Mm-hmm
Osama Aduib: I don't know, janitorial or engineering, where are you seeing that kind of data support, uh, way that we approach?
Paul Ratkovic: So there's some, there's some really awesome stuff out there. Um, and again, you know, you look at, and I'll just... We talk about sensors, a lot of sensors, and there's sensors on equipment, and there's vibration analysis, all really awesome, cool.
I don't-- It's been around for, [00:24:00] for, for a while though, which is great. And so the evolution, uh, of using that data and trying to pinpoint failure modes and stuff. Very, very, very cool stuff. To me, what's even cooler is what people do in the space, right? And how they maneuver the space, when they maneuver the space, which ultimately leads to why they maneuver the space.
So, you know, you think about, uh, what number of people in an off- in a, a conference room starts to bring the humidity level up to a certain level that it starts to be uncomfortable, or heat for that matter, right? The human body emits the same amount of heat as a s- 100 watt incandescent light bulb, so back in those days, right?
So, so, you know, you think about that and you start to be able to play with, it's not just how many people can fit in the space, it's how comfortable are they and what does that mean for the systems that are supporting that space? Back to your comment about what should we do now for the meeting we know three months from now to make sure that we are addressing that [00:25:00] same kind of conversation to hopefully be that hidden menu in the background and be silent servicers of the space so it's functional for what it's needed for.
So I mean, I really think about that and how you can really start to get into why people go where they go, why they leave rooms, why they get up and go stand in the hallway during a meeting and leave the door open bec- whatever it is. There's really, really cool stuff about that. And, you know, data is, is king, and that's where a lot of AI programming can really help a lot and like tease through a lot of stuff and let the, the tea rise up and the tea leaves rise up and give us an idea of really what's happening in the space.
Osama Aduib: Fantastic. Well, for those of us who are listening, if an FM leader wanted to activate the hidden menu tomorrow, Amelia, you come from, again, the world of traditional hospitality. Maybe some thoughts or some ideas on things that maybe you've pulled from, uh, your, your, uh, your career.
Amelia Ekus: Yeah, I mean, the, the first thing that I would do if somebody wanted to go in and, and say, "Okay, how do I implement this in my space tomorrow?
What's [00:26:00] the first small step I can take? How do I eat the elephant," as they say, "one bite at a time?" The first thing that I would do is I would bring sort of all of your departments together, and I would do that on a regular cadence. So I would do it day-to-day at, whether you call it a pre-shift or a 10 at 10 or a stand-up meeting.
I think every industry has this type of meeting. But let's bring them all together and say, "What's happening in the space today? And then how do we all contribute to what we, what we need to accomplish and what we want the space to feel like today?" That would be the, the first kind of easy win that I would, that I would say.
The second piece, and more of a longer-term solve, is I would really look at your, your guest journey, your end user journey, and I would engage all of your departments to do that from multiple levels, because you would be... Well, this crowd actually probably wouldn't be surprised at the amount of information that can come from so many different levels of employees in the space.
Don't just bring your strategists, bring every level, and really walk through. You know, Wilgaar's Unreasonable [00:27:00] Hospitality, they just released a new tool for the interrogation of the guest journey. It's a, it's a wonderful tool. Get your teams together and go through the experience of the guest in the space, because you will identify what you want it to feel like instead of what you want each department to do and have as a measurable outcome.
It's really about how you can create that feeling, and that'll help you identify gaps and, and deliver on a level that, um, that you didn't expect.
Osama Aduib: Fantastic. Paul, any thoughts,
Paul Ratkovic: uh, on- At ISS, you know, we, we call our frontline employees placemakers. And to me, the subtle terminology and sh- if, well, the terminology itself can subtly shift mindset of the employee themselves.
And that, you know, on the technical side, on the janitorial side, cleaning side, I really see that as a, as a, just a bringing something different to the employee themselves so they then stay connected, and they're the ones delivering on the hidden menu concept, and they're the ones that understand why what they do matters [00:28:00] beyond working a 40-hour shift, which is very important, right?
A 40-hour work week, very important. But what does it mean to, again, the building owner, the equipment, and the people in the building that you're working with and for every day in a service capacity? And that really is it for, for me. It's, there's the turning of the wrenches, but then there's the, the, the mental change and the enabling of those folks to really believe in what they're doing to say, "What I do impacts a press conference that's happening," right?
Whatever. Like, that's, that really starts to get people to really bring the best of themselves to the space. And that, that to me is, is really what is most fascinating about this concept.
Osama Aduib: All right. Well then, one last message for our listeners to remember about the hidden menu. I'm gonna give you guys each an opportunity.
Paul, we'll go with you first.
Paul Ratkovic: That at the end of the day, this is all about service. You know, I look at my, my life. In high school, I worked at a men's clothing store as a stock person. I worked at a bakery, a deli, which was fascinating. I worked at a convenience store. Shout out to what used to be [00:29:00] White Hen Pantry.
And you think about that and what that takes to do that kind of work and why it translates into what this work is, and there's a direct line of sight between ringing somebody up or giving them their donut as there is to making sure that the space is comfortable and safe for them in the workplace years down the road.
Osama Aduib: I can actually sing the White Hen ditty, Paul. I remember White Hen's quite fondly. A
Paul Ratkovic: must. But
Amelia Ekus: yeah,
Osama Aduib: we'll do it at the end, Paul. We'll see if we can close with that. Uh, Amelia, one last thought on our way out here.
Amelia Ekus: Yeah. For me, the, the closing thought around the hidden menu is, is just really a focus on the concept of it being hidden.
And often in our industry, we are very focused on what is measurable and what is the outcome and what can we report on, and that is all very, very important. And in addition to that, there are these millions of inputs and factors that really impact how people feel, and that is very often not visible. And if you're doing it really well, it is likely not [00:30:00] visible.
And so I would just give a final reminder that the hidden portion of the experience that we create for people is as important as what we can report out on and deserves just as much attention and intention.
Osama Aduib: Thank you so much. Well, that wraps up today's episode. A huge thank you to Paul and Amelia, uh, for joining us today.
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