How do facilities manage critical space and infrastructure data when paper drawings, outdated PDFs, and personnel changes create chaotic information gaps? In this episode, host Andy Santoro speaks with Scott Payne, who shares insights from his time managing infrastructure updates at a general hospital in Toronto. They unpack the risks of relying on static "as-built" drawings, explain why every facility ends up with an indispensable "go-to" person holding tribal knowledge, and detail how implementing a living mapping system transitions critical infrastructure data into a real-time, shared repository.
When critical facility infrastructure fails, where do your teams turn for reliable drawings? In this episode, Andy Santoro of Sansys sits down with former Etobicoke General Hospital infrastructure lead Scott Payne to discuss the reality of managing complex facility data.
Together, they explore:
Interested in hearing more? Andy and Scott will take this topic to the stage at World Workplace on 20 November for their education session, “When the Go-To Goes: Don’t Let the Knowledge Walk Out the Door.” Learn more.
Scott Payne: [00:00:00] The facility needs to take that control and let the consultants know what they want at the end of the day, not just accepting what they get.
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How do facilities manage critical space and infrastructure data when paper drawings, outdated PDFs, and personnel changes create information gaps? In today's episode, host Andy Santoro, the president of Sansys, speaks with Scott Payne, who shares insights from his time at managing infrastructure updates at a general hospital in Toronto.
They unpack the risks of relying on static as-built drawings, explain why every [00:01:00] facility ends up with an indispensable go-to person, and detail how implementing a living mapping system transitions critical infrastructure data into real-time shared repository. And if you're interested in hearing more, Andy and Scott are taking this topic to the stage at World Workplace on the twentieth of November for their education session, When the Go-To Goes, Don't Let the Knowledge Walk Out the Door.
Now, let's get into it.
Andy Santoro: Hi, I'm Andy Santoro. I'm with Sansys. What we do is help facilities better manage their space and infrastructure information. I'm joined here by Scott Payne, who's recently come on board, and he was the go-to person looking after our projects and infrastructure updates at Etobicoke General Hospital in Toronto.
And I guess when something goes wrong, Scott, and they can't sort it out, they go and look for you. I think this is still happening [00:02:00] Right?
Scott Payne: Yep. Yeah. It, it ha- it happened, yes
Andy Santoro: So I was just gonna mention, with your experience at the hospital, you've, you've come across some real world examples of issues that we're gonna be talking about today.
Like, when did you first realize that people were coming to you for information they couldn't find anywhere?
Scott Payne: Well, when I started at the hospital in 2012, I came from, uh, manufacturing and manufacturing, maintenance. I've got 30 years of experience there, so I brought some of that with me. I started as the CMMS coordinator.
I built the asset management database and the work order system, preventive maintenance, and demand work orders. And while I was there, I got to know the building. I got involved with the BAS system upgrades, and I just... While I was out, uh, asset tagging equipment, I learned the structure of the hospital and the infrastructure and everything, and I just was able to help people.
So someone would, uh, say, "Where is this?" And I was very curious. I [00:03:00] wanted to, you know, do the best for everybody, do what was good for the hospital. I, I liked what I was doing there. And, um, I, I started going through the drawings, finding what they had for drawings.
Andy Santoro: Did you, did you have luck finding the drawings you were looking for?
Scott Payne: It was, it was a chore. There was, uh, paper drawings. Uh, the building was built in 1972. We had scanned drawings of blueprints. We had some PDF drawings. We had a lot of project drawings hanging in folders and, uh, whatnot. There was a shared drive that had project data in it, and it was, it was a lot of data spread over a lot of different medias.
Andy Santoro: And then I guess when you couple that with the changes in personnel, along with the changes in the facility and the changes in the documentation, it could really get a bit of a mess, if you know what I mean.
Scott Payne: It, it absolutely did. And I realized with, you know, with the help of the managers, you know, we realized that we didn't have [00:04:00] everything we needed, and the decision was made to try to correct that and get a repository for the information that everybody could share in real time.
And I realized that some of the drawings we had were stamped as as built, but some of the drawings I actually had no choice but to go for the issue pretenders. That was all we had to, uh, work with. So we realized that we needed baseline drawings and we needed to keep them up to date.
Andy Santoro: And when you did look for getting it up to date, how did you use the existing drawings?
How did you document things that changed? Like, if you found something or something that wasn't on the documents, how do you update them?
Scott Payne: Uh, for some of the drawings, the floor plans were kept up to date. They were, they were literally kept up to date That usually, yeah, that
Andy Santoro: usually happens
Scott Payne: It's the M and, M&E, uh, portion, so, uh, if, you know, for the single line diagrams, I would make changes in a PDF [00:05:00] and upload those and make sure that the trades had access to just that one set
Andy Santoro: What about panel schedules?
Scott Payne: Panel schedules, we, uh, we, we were able to do those. The electricians themselves were able to do them. In the beginning, just after I'd started, we brought in a electrical company, and they traced all of the receptacles on the 11 stories of the building, placed them on a PDF, and that was our, uh, updated panel schedules.
But again, that was static information. Uh, a year later, that would have to be updated if we made changes. But that was something that wasn't done very well, so we ended up losing some history until several years into it, we realized we had to make changes
Andy Santoro: And then, yeah, because back then, it was like scratching into the paper, scratching this circuit out, and the paper- Well, I would...
Yeah That happens everywhere, yeah
Scott Payne: And, and some of our, some of our trades, they would actually have paper drawings that they would update with color coding for themselves. They didn't hide them. They didn't just keep them close to their chest. They allowed everybody, you know, to look at them, but there was way too many different [00:06:00] ways of logging data
Andy Santoro: Yeah, because, I mean, m- from my background, I come back from the, the days where you just Provide a roll of drawings after they've been done to the facility as a, you know, consultant or contractor, and you're left with those static paper drawings, which is r- they're really hard to update.
So-
Scott Payne: Oh, the, the drawings themselves, we never update the original
Andy Santoro: drawings And we talked about, we talked about that a while ago to see how we can kinda keep the information up to date, make them living, like living documents instead of-
Scott Payne: Yeah ...
Andy Santoro: just paper. And again, consultants and contractors have that ability with CAD.
Facilities now are starting to use CAD, and they're using, you know, been PDF, but there's always been a big gap between consultants and owners because of the technology. The consultants did everything by CAD, and then printed everything out, and then now some of the facilities who can have the [00:07:00] resources and people and money to work with these.
Same thing with BIM now. There's not too many facilities that are, unless you're a very large facility, that are using BIM and keeping it updated. There's- Yeah ... there's a big learning curve. Yeah. So we wanted to keep s- we wanted to keep it simple, but yet manageable.
Scott Payne: That- that's it. And, and we realized a few years into my tenure there that we had to do something to get the information up to date, keep it up to date.
So I, I gathered up all the documents that I could find in electronic PDF, CDs, flash drives, everything I could find, and, uh, we found a company that would create a CAD baseline for us based on the 1972 drawings that we had, and they would do version control. They'd go through the different projects and make sure what they updated to CAD, it was the latest revs.
And that was in about 2018, I believe it was, when they, when they finished it and handed us, uh ... Well, we got the, the, the baseline back but then there was times [00:08:00] where that baseline wasn't kept up to date. Everybody gets busy. Uh, projects come and go. All we get from projects is the section that they updated, a small footprint of the entire facility.
That information then needs to be added to the CAD drawing, the, the baselines, and that's where we fell down a few times. And then we realized that, you know, a year later or two years later, I'd scratch my head and said, "I've already done this. We did this two years ago for another partial project. Why are we doing it again?"
And that's the evolution of it
Andy Santoro: Yeah, and then the changes that happen all the time, how do you get them, even though you've got a baseline, how do you get the baselines updated? It's usually goes to a third party consultant or contractor when a project is done, right? Remember the times we had to integrate the information to say, "What are we gonna track that changes a lot?"
That's important. What could be some risk involved? How do you know what to track, and log, and keep changes? I mean, it's endless when it comes to infrastructure, [00:09:00] mechanical, electrical infrastructure. Space, it's, it changes in a hospital setting a lot, and-
Scott Payne: Yes ...
Andy Santoro: what would you think is the key equipment and things that we need to track
Scott Payne: Well, as we get projects in, we'd get the M&Es, we'd get the cut sheets, we'd get all the documents.
That would stay static for that particular project. It's the drawings that need to be kept up to date. So, uh, in a hospital you're gonna have the medical air gases, the medical gases, as opposed to, you know, apartment buildings, you're not gonna worry about that. Those are the structures that are important.
So pretty much everything on the CAD drawing is important. Now, what we've noticed on some drawings is the drawings grow, cons- consultants use their own descriptions for layers. They create new layers on top of old layers, and I remember looking at some drawings that had over 100 layers for a
Andy Santoro: few items.
Yeah, there's not much control a facility has when it comes to getting the documents.
Scott Payne: The facility needs to take that [00:10:00] control and let the consultants know what they want at the end of the day, not just accepting what they get.
Andy Santoro: Yeah, because... And, and what, what we realized when we were working together is we needed, as far as the equipment, things to track that change, we have to know where it is and what- Yeah
it's connected to. Absolutely. And what implications are, happen if that equipment is compromised in any way. So that's why we work together to put a mapping system to map that critical equipment. That includes elec- on the electrical side panels, on the, on the domestic water, there's valves, air handling systems, fire distribution-
Scott Payne: Yep
Andy Santoro: uh, fire water.
Scott Payne: These are HVAC, HVAC or steaming traps, everything. So we use that mapping system as a, a, a repository for all of the data that everybody in the building has access to when they need it, and it's real time, and it's the, uh... it's up to date and accurate.
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Andy Santoro: It's like, it's like we did a Scott transplant surgery and took the information in your head and, and made it so that now they can all access, uh, Scott when they need to.
Scott Payne: That's correct. Something like that, yes. But I've still got it here, though.
Andy Santoro: Yeah, because the, the, the... And once we integrated that, we realized that the same concept happens for all the [00:12:00] different systems, right? And when it comes to what's connected to what and where it's located. That's right. So that mapping system we're using now, and it, we made it to a point where you can quickly move things, edit things, keep it up to date.
That's key at this point, because- Every new project, once it's new, one day old, it's old, and it changes That's
Scott Payne: correct.
Andy Santoro: And
Scott Payne: Right
Andy Santoro: You know, w- there's gotta be more involvement on the owner's part to the change
Scott Payne: Correct. So even, even keeping the, uh, baselines up to date, the baseline CADs up to date after a project, that still takes some time.
So we know if we've got a project that it's, uh, you know, been going for six months, the project is finished, the area is populated again, we may not see those as-built for, for several months. But, uh, the hospitals are very fluid. Things are always happening. Even after a project, sometimes additional changes need to be added.
Life goes on, and with the mapping system that we put in, we can do those changes on the [00:13:00] fly until the as-built are, are, uh, are, are caught up So we're not gonna send out, uh, as-builts every month to a third party to have them updated. Uh, now that we have the mapping system, we can keep the, keep the as-built and do it in, in, in batch, batch work.
Andy Santoro: And, and with... Once we, once we coordinated where it's located and what it's connected to, we were... You came up with ideas to say, "If this is shut off, then we know downstream what's shut off." So w- it was, you started using a shutdown management system just based on that. And I think-
Scott Payne: Absolutely ...
Andy Santoro: it was a transformer, uh, or whether it was a large project you were, you were gonna do, and we, we kind of put the, the system together to see what would be affected when something was isolated.
Scott Payne: Absolutely. Well, you know, a, a couple years ago we had a transformer that failed in thermography, and we needed to replace it. So in the mapping system, I'd go, I'd select that transformer. I know where it's fed from, where the disconnect is, [00:14:00] and everything that was gonna be shut down. And at that point, we could reach out to the different stakeholders and tell them that, you know, coming up there's gonna be a shutdown, and we can start planning an electrical shutdown to replace that transformer.
For other shutdowns, in 2019 they opened a new wing on the building. It was attached to the west side of the building, and that started in, I believe, about 2016. And there was many connections to the building, and redevelopment was on our doorstep almost daily, asking for information on where the, where the water was, where the pipes were, where the med gases were, electrical.
Several departments were changed on, uh, three or four different floors, and there's a lot of integration. And without the mapping system, I would have had to have had our trades go out, pop ceiling tiles, start looking for valves, and following the, the as-builts, the best that we have of the as-builts, and create a plan, hand that back to redevelopment and say, "This is what I believe we have.
Have at it." "Hope it works."
Andy Santoro: Yeah. Well, I'm just [00:15:00] thinking of an example that we used, uh, with a map, with the mapping system at another customer where an MCC was destroyed by a, a sprinkler leak. And they had to rebuild it because it was completely destroyed, and they had the information. Because the MCC lineups change out quite a bit.
You add a fan here, a pump, whatever. Mm-hmm. They had it all up to date, and they kept it up to date. So then when they went out for the insurance to come to rebuild it, they, the insurance said, "We've never seen something that they can build that fast." Because-
Scott Payne: Yeah ...
Andy Santoro: the, y- you'd be going to as-built drawings or this, the, the same thing.
So again, this is- More in the owner's control
Scott Payne: Yep, absolutely. We live it, and, and like one thing about hospitals is the infrastructure, it's very fluid. There's always something happening in a hospital. A department is changing, a department's adding something, a new machine's coming in, an old machine's being upgraded, has a similar footprint, but not necessarily the same.
And [00:16:00] maintaining the, the, uh, code compliance. Every time there's an update, we have to m- match or exceed the, uh, current code, CSA and, uh, IPAC controls. And just taking one machine out, putting another one in is not always the answer. It's not as, as simple as it sounds
Andy Santoro: So developing their mapping systems now and, and getting the technology up to date, will it replace the go-to person?
Scott Payne: It probably won't because somebody at a building, whether it's one person or a few Yeah. Um, there's always gonna be somebody that, that needs to, uh, spearhead this or champion the information and keep it up to date, whether that's within the department or a third party. Uh, departments really need to have control of their own data.
That's what's important.
Andy Santoro: And the, and the go-tos are kind of born, the reason they evolve is because the information isn't available anywhere else, like, the proper information, so
Scott Payne: if you're- A lot of the information's there. It's, it's just the people don't know, the, the trades don't always know where to go and find it.
Right. [00:17:00] And, uh, with the trades, you get new trades coming in. You know, some of the people get, when they start in hospitals, they stay, but people move on. New trades will come in. Uh, they have to be trained.
Andy Santoro: Right.
Scott Payne: And with the mapping system, they have everything at their fingertips. What we've got is very easy to use.
Everybody gets full access. If you want to have view-only access for the few so they don't make some, uh, erroneous mistakes, that's fine. And that, that's where they go for the information that they, they need, and everybody shares that same information.
Andy Santoro: So, so Scott, if I asked you, or even the people listening, do you think they would know where their main shutoff is?
Some would, some wouldn't, right?
Scott Payne: Some would, some wouldn't. And, you know, we did, uh, partway a few years ago, we realized this was important. So I, I went through all the drawings and the mapping system we have, added the drawing, a- added the, uh, the valves that we needed, and flagged some very important valves that wouldn't shut the entire building down if we had to shut the, uh, main water off.
We knew we had the [00:18:00] vertical risers in the tower and horizontal ri- or horizontal feeds in the, in the podium, so everybody would know where those particular valves were. And we did training sessions, uh, to try to know where they are. Um, the same with sprinkler, uh, zone valves. We... A lot of guys, a lot of the, the plumber didn't know, and a lot of the people didn't know where the sprinkler zone valves were, and we had sprinkler heads freeze, and- Oh
everybody's running around trying to find the, uh, the zone valve.
Andy Santoro: Yeah.
Scott Payne: So we flagged those and put them on and tried to do some training. Say, uh, you know, once a, once a year we'd go through it and say, "This is where the shutoffs are," especially for water.
Andy Santoro: Yeah. And I guess the goal here isn't to, like, identify everything.
It's just the things that, you know, in- in- influence safety, operations, and risks, and making it available to people who have to manage it, a facility, and make it run. So, uh, yeah, just I guess in closing up here, we'll be at IFMA World [00:19:00] Workplace speaking a little bit more about this, on how we did it in more detail in this actual case study, because we have to keep the information current, because the building changes all the time.
Scott Payne: Absolutely. The information must stay current.
Andy Santoro: Well, thanks, Scott.
Scott Payne: Thank you, Andy. Good to talk to you.
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