Kay Sargent discusses the pressing need for change in facilities management, emphasizing the importance of human-centric design and the future of work. She challenges the industry to snap out of its current mindset and rethink how spaces are designed to meet the evolving needs of the workforce.
In today's episode host Edward Wagoner interviews Kay Sargent, who was recently named an IFMA Global FM Influencer and is the Director of Thought Leadership, Interiors at HOK. Together they discuss the evolving needs of buildings and how facility managers must adapt to future trends. They also go over the importance of human-centric design, the impact of artificial intelligence on productivity and the potential for longer lifespans to change workplace dynamics. They also touch on the necessity for the industry to shift from a sustainability mindset to one of regeneration, emphasizing the role of curiosity and forward-thinking in driving meaningful change.
00:00 Introduction to Future-Proofing Buildings
00:25 Welcome to Connected FM Podcast
01:15 Introducing Today's Guest: Kay Sargent
02:54 The Need for Human-Centric Design
05:41 Rethinking Work and Retirement
10:23 Global Sustainability Challenges
17:06 The Role of AI in Office Design
23:42 Creating Meaningful Organizations
24:32 The Importance of Wants and Needs in Sales
25:47 Rethinking Workspace Design
26:24 The Role of Technology in Our Lives
27:36 The Science of Design
29:00 Future Casting and the Role of AI
30:44 Curiosity and Asking 'What If?'
34:50 The Impact of Neuroaesthetics
36:29 Challenges and Opportunities in Facility Management
40:12 Personal Stories and Writing a Book
43:08 Conclusion and Farewell
Sponsor:
This episode is sponsored by ODP Business Solutions!
Kay Sargent: [00:00:00] The buildings that we're building and managing are reflective of what we as humans need. So if our needs are changing, the buildings that we are going to need are going to change. so I think we have a huge opportunity in front of us, but also a huge challenge that we really need to be able to think about how are we gonna design buildings to sustain as we go forward? What's that gonna look like?
Host: Welcome to Connected fm, a podcast connecting you to the latest insights, tools, and resources to help you succeed in facility management. This podcast is brought to you by ifma, the leading professional association for facility managers. If you're ready to grow your network and advance in your career, go to ifma.org to get started.
Today, we're sharing the next installment of our top global FM influencer series hosting. This episode is Edward Wagner, one of our recognized [00:01:00] influencers with more than 30 years in the real estate industry, including two decades as a technology executive. So we're gonna hand it over to him as he introduces today's guest.
Edward Wagoner: What's an IFMA Global influencer? They're a credible voice in facilities management, sharing expertise, shaping trends.
Connecting disciplines, advocating for innovation and simplifying complex topics in our industry. These individuals help expand the influence of facilities management, and in doing so, our entire profession. Today's guest is one of them. She's a frequent and top rated speaker at major industry events, including Corenet and IFMA.
She's testified as a subject matter expert before the US House of Representatives and multiple US Congressional committees. Her impressive and extensive list of awards and recognition include Interior Design Magazine's, lifetime of Hipness Award [00:02:00] Designer of Distinction, the highest award of the American Society of Interior Designers. Multiple awards, recognizing her contributions to sustainability, diversity and innovation, CoreNet's Global Professional Excellence Award, and IFMA's own distinguished author award for her research on neurodiversity.
She is Director of Thought Leadership Interiors for HOK. Welcome, IFMA Global Influencer, Kay Sargent.
Kay Sargent: Well, thank you. Thank you very much for having me.
Edward Wagoner: It is so excited to be able to talk to you, and I've been a fan for many years. You actually have influenced me long before I got to meet you and do events with you or whatnot. And so no surprise to see your name on that list, but I know we're broadcasting to. Tens of thousands of people around the world, people that work in facilities management
Okay, facilities management. And while all of those people are listening as a global influencer, take the mic and [00:03:00] influence us.
Kay Sargent: Snap out of it.
Okay. Our industry is so stuck that we really need to get people to snap out of it, and I just find it so fascinating. We've been doing a lot of future casting with our clients. I've just come back with it from the Embassy of the future, and if you think about our industry and the fact that we are building buildings that will stand for.
70, a hundred. I was just in a building that stood for a thousand years,
and even the interior spaces that we're designing are gonna stand for 10, 15, 20 years. Yet we're so focused on now and myopically focused on what's happening today, and by the time we even have these spaces built. They're probably already behind.
And if there's any industry that really needs to be thinking about what's out there, what's on the horizon, and really designing for it, it's ours. But [00:04:00] everybody is so focused right now on what's that great amenity that's gonna, you know, bring everybody back. And I think, you know, we're also being set up for failure here because space alone.
Cannot solve all of our problems. You know, the way that we're working today, it's really a whole issue around work and how work is changing, how people and society is changing. And those two things should be driving the types of spaces that we're delivering. And I think specifically for facility managers.
Just that term, right? Buildings are starting to become more and more automated and our roles are gonna be shifting to really thinking about how am I managing and curating an amazing experience so that people will even wanna be in the building. And so we have got to start embracing human-centric design.
We have to start embracing really the big issues that are impacting us. And we need to start thinking about what is coming down the line and how [00:05:00] that's gonna impact our industry.
Edward Wagoner: So I, I love that. I mean, we're so focused on the now and I agree quite often.
We get in our boxes and we think about, you know, what's around us. How would you tell people to get out of the box? What should they be looking at to change their thinking, learn more about human-centric, to make sure that they're not. Designing for tomorrow, but for the real future because so often we get caught up in what we see and what our companies tell us and maybe what we see on LinkedIn.
Where should people be looking for this thought leadership?
Kay Sargent: We need to look outside our industry. By the way, if you're starting with what is the workplace of the future going to be, that's the wrong place to start. We need to think about what is work going to be like in 10, 15, 20 years and what is the workforce going to look like?
And there are a lot of dynamics at play right now. You know, we've got a generation that is going to live to be very old. That means they're probably gonna be working [00:06:00] longer. That means that retirement is gonna be further off for them. And so, you know, in, in a lot of these circles that we're looking at.
We're almost on the verge of retirement, not even being a thing anymore. If you're gonna live to a hundred, you're probably gonna be working 50, 60, 70 years, and you can't wait until you retire. So we have to rethink this entire way that we're even functioning because work itself and how we're doing it has become unsustainable.
And if artificial intelligence is really going to truly improve productivity, then. When do we start giving something back to people? Right? When do we start focusing on human sustainability and when do we start saying, okay, well, if we can get as much done in four days as we can, five, and we can have a little bit more, like maybe take that retirement and bring it into chunks, have sabbaticals or have longer weekends.
We need to start thinking about those types of things. And even just social dynamics are shifting. We have a huge [00:07:00] percentage of the population now that may not have children. And that creates a very different nomadic workforce than the workforce that you might have had in the fifties or the sixties or the seventies.
And their priorities are gonna shift. The things that they're focused on are gonna shift. Their ability is gonna shift. I mean, my children are going to finish their careers in jobs that don't even exist today. They are gonna have to go back and get retrained. So we need to fundamentally think about all of those other factors that are influencing work and the workforce.
And then we need to think about, so what does that mean for the workplace and how does that change the way we're designing and managing our buildings and our facilities and our cities and our lives?
Edward Wagoner: So a couple of things that you said there. Really struck me. First of all, I think most people would have stereotyped you as an architect. She's gonna [00:08:00] say in the office five days a week, nine to five, and I heard you talk about nomadic you know, creating workspaces for people different stages of their life.
I also, I think about living longer, which we all hope to live longer.
Kay Sargent: I don't know. I may not like look. They say that the first person to be able to live, to be 150 is alive on the planet today. Seriously. Wow. And you know, I have five kids. So death is my retirement plan, and there are days that can't come lost enough for me. I mean, seriously I'm 60. My body would've, my body won't make it to 90.
I mean, I've got bad knees, I've got, you know, whatever. Seriously. And but that's one of the things, right? If you are gonna live to be a hundred, you have to fundamentally. Everything you have to rethink, will I ever retire or will there be a different version of retirement? Before, if you're in certain jobs, you can't be a construction worker in your seventies and eighties, right? So we have to really fundamentally think about what does [00:09:00] this new reality that we could be living in, what does that mean and what's our place in that?
Edward Wagoner: And I think my takeaway from that too is you're not just talking about rethinking the workplace. It's we have to rethink. Everything about how we think about life, if we're all going to live that much longer. So that's residential spaces. That is retail spaces, that's medical spaces. It's not just people think facility management and office.
You're
Kay Sargent: Right.
Edward Wagoner: every building everywhere needs to be thought about differently the population will potentially live a lot longer than it ever has.
Kay Sargent: Right. And the buildings that we're building and managing are reflective of what we as humans need. So if our needs are changing, the buildings that we are going to need are going to change.
So 70% of the building stock in the US and 90% of the global building stock is not designed appropriately to meet the sustainability goals that we need. So we need to [00:10:00] fundamentally think about. How are we going to either adapt those buildings, repurpose those buildings, we need to start thinking about circularity, et cetera.
And so I think we have a huge opportunity in front of us, but also a huge challenge that we really need to be able to think about how are we gonna design buildings to sustain as we go forward? What's that gonna look like?
Edward Wagoner: Now we've got a global audience. And so as you were talking about that, I was thinking, what you say count for everyone or is, you know, are sustainability goals more Western Some of the more evolved first world economies.
Kay Sargent: Right.
So if you're looking at the Paris climate accord and or the UN Standards, which are global then yes we are in that category. I think there are, United States is relatively young compared to others, which presents a whole nother layer of challenges, [00:11:00] right? If you think about like the return to office, European cities we're designed very differently than US cities.
I think people forget that most of the cities west of the Mississippi are less than 150 years old. They were primarily designed as central business districts with people living in the suburbs where European cities evolved over centuries and had housing embedded throughout the cores of the cities, right?
So we have very different challenges, but almost any building built before 1990, and again, that's 90% of the buildings on the planet right now do not meet those sustainability goals.
Edward Wagoner: What you said applies to everyone listening, no matter what country they're in. And I emphasize that because IFMA has chapters all over the world. We both have global backgrounds.
We may have American accents, but we have some global experience. So I wanted to make sure that we drove that home. So there'll be listeners that will say I [00:12:00] agree with her. I know where to go to educate myself on what I need to do differently. And obviously ifma s putting out a lot of material and has a lot of educational resources, but what are some other things that you would recommend that people follow and look at besides making sure they keep up with your work?
You know,
Kay Sargent: Oh.
Edward Wagoner: would you recommend they, they look at.
Kay Sargent: Well, if you wanna follow two people on LinkedIn from our firm that you should follow, it's Christine Vanover and Sean Quinn. Sean is our director of regeneration and it, I think it starts with a mind shift. Okay. I think it is time that we retire certain words like sustainability, because I don't know anybody that wants to just sustain, right? We all wanna thrive and I think we have actually kind of let that sustainability ship sail. We have now gotten to a point where we have to reverse the damage that we've actually done. So sustaining isn't gonna get [00:13:00] us where we need to be. So, we named Sean Quinn, the director of sustainability.
Probably three or four years ago he did an amazing talk at South by Southwest that you can go online and Google that talks about what we need to do to kind of take this to the next level and how do we actually create buildings that aren't just neutral but are net positive that actually give back to society.
And that's really in a sense, what we need to do. So any and all buildings that are being built today, we need to think about that. And Christine and her team at HRK have done amazing work. Around circularity and responsible material resourcing and how do we repurpose things, et cetera. So lots of great work that's being done out there.
We just need to do it on a much larger scale so that it has a bigger impact for all of us.
Edward Wagoner: You said retire the word sustainability, so I wanna make sure I'm not on a stage with you in the future and use that word. What word should. We be using now. I heard thrive, but
Kay Sargent: Yeah, [00:14:00] regeneration.
Edward Wagoner: regeneration?
Kay Sargent: And Ed, I am gonna use the word sustainability 'cause I, it still slips out of my mouth. But we need, the notion is we gotta go above and beyond that we really do. Right.
Edward Wagoner: I like that and truthfully, I had not thought about sustainability from that perspective. And I know quite often we'll hear words and our subconscious will interpret it the way we maybe learn the definition in school. And I love the way you're emphasizing. It's not about sustaining, it's about doing something different for a
Right.
result.
so you mentioned 90% of the buildings built since 1990.
Kay Sargent: Well, in any building before 1990, which is 90% of the buildings on the planet.
Edward Wagoner: So those 90% of the buildings, I know there's a lot of asset managers that make decisions based on the returns they think they can
Kay Sargent: Yes.
Edward Wagoner: or achieve. They've got those targets.
Kay Sargent: Yes.
Edward Wagoner: and a lot of facility managers and property managers would say, as always, I'm limited by what the owners will fund or [00:15:00] invest. So what's the message to people that have the ownership stake that maybe don't see the return? Because let's face it. We're all dealing with quarterly returns and what Wall Street expects us to do on a quarterly basis. lot of what we're talking about takes a little longer to implement, and the impact has a little bit of a longer timeframe.
So how do we help asset managers make the case to make some of the investments that you and I both know that we need to do to create regeneration in our buildings?
Kay Sargent: I'm gonna go back to what I started with. Snap out of it, I mean. In 20, 30 years, you know, when you're looking at your grandchildren, when you're looking at the next generation of designers, are they gonna care about what happened here? I mean, we are the first generation and the that knows about climate change.
We are the last generation that can probably do anything about it. And so we have a window. We have to act. And if [00:16:00] we don't act, it doesn't matter. Those corporate profits down the line, and I know everybody is so myopically focused on that. We're so focused on the now and what's gonna happen. We've gotta get outside of our own heads and we've gotta connect ourselves to something bigger.
We have a huge impact on this planet. 40% of the carbon emissions on this planet are coming from the built environment. We have a major impact and people spend 90% of their time indoors. We have a major impact on people and we have to think about what that is, not only today, but going forward and what that means for the next generation.
We are going to basically set the legacy for the next two or three or four generations, if not forever. And we have to determine , what are our priorities and what's important. And every single one of us needs to get outside of our own little box and stop looking down at our feet.
And we need to start looking out at the horizon and thinking about what is coming [00:17:00] and what kind of world we wanna pass on to the next generation and the next generation and the next.
Edward Wagoner: As you were talking, I was thinking about a call you and I had not too long ago. I had asked AI to create the office of the future and use
Kay Sargent: Yeah.
Edward Wagoner: my backdrop, and you had a very visceral reaction because it was based on what we already know about. It was basically the current office, maybe with a couple of new gadgets, but it wasn't really a reinvented future office like we talked about.
So thinking that a lot of people are starting to lean into AI and look for their answers. Based on our conversation and your reaction to what you saw in my background, they're gonna get the wrong answers from ai. So how do we get people to think out of the box and not be trapped in what they've always done?
Maybe what the business unit leaders are thinking they need. do we change the industry's perception [00:18:00] of it's not just another amenity, it's completely rethinking the way we work.
Kay Sargent: Well, let me give you an example of what this is. Somebody was telling me recently that, you know, they have this great tool that can look at how everybody is using it, and the AI can run all this analysis and they can collect all this data and they can tell you exactly how people are using it so that you can design the space of the future. Well, you basically just told me how to design the space that already exists, right? Because you're replicating what is already happening and you're not even asking is what people are doing. Now, what I want them to do, and I want you, I want everybody just to stop and think about how much time you spend multitasking on Zoom calls.
Responding to emails and doing menial tasks that you know, really are not that important, is that really what we want to replicate? And this whole conversation around productivity, I think is a false flag. I think what we need to start thinking about is what do you do that drives [00:19:00] value?
Why do you even have an office where people can come together? And is it so they can just sit there and do individual tasks all day? And, you know, respond on emails all day because quite frankly you could pretty much do that anywhere. We need to think about all the bad behavior that we're doing right now and rethink that and look, there are a lot of people that do heads down concentrated work.
There are a lot of people that are doing production work. Working in an architectural firm, we got a lot of people that are doing drawings all day. Okay. But we also have to think about, I want people to come together. 'cause I want them to learn from each other. I want them to learn from osmosis. I want them to engage together.
I want them to continue their learning. We are in a apprenticeship model. I will tell you, you don't want a building that's been designed by an architect that graduated from college and worked in his basement for the next 30 years, right? You don't know everything you need to know when you graduate, and there are a lot of professions that are like that.
So are you setting up the space for the behavior you want, not the [00:20:00]behavior you're doing, the behavior you want. And I will tell you, there's a lot of offices right now that are encouraging bad behavior or things that really aren't driving. Value. And so we need to rethink what that actually means to us, what we value and design spaces intentionally that support that and enable people to function at a higher level.
Edward Wagoner: You know, as you were talking, it reminded me I, I recently, was privileged to attend a very small table of very senior real estate executives. If I were to name 'em, everybody would know the companies and the people, so I'm not
Kay Sargent: Oh
Edward Wagoner: that. But were talking about this very about we're incenting wrong behaviors.
Kay Sargent: yeah.
Edward Wagoner: And they started talking about people that with the return to office mandates, there are people that are coming to the office badge, swiping, getting coffee, and then leaving, to the office to prove that they were there. They're not being productive. [00:21:00] And I think that's an example of where even our senior real estate people know that what their companies are making us do the right thing to incent that productivity or that right behavior. And I think it just supports what you said about completely rethinking the why of the office and the how of the office, and you and I both. Have been in real estate for decades. I think we love the industry. We're not saying do away with the office or do away with our downtown central business districts or our office parks or anything. We're just saying do it better.
Kay Sargent: I think we're losing community and I think offices can really provide a lot of community and connections and relationships. And I'm going to, I'm going to say. Gonna be very unpopular, so I'm gonna apologize. I'm gonna be an equal opportunity in advance. I think there are a lot of people that are waking up in the morning and deciding, thinking like, do I wanna put on pants and drive to the office?
No. Right? They're not thinking, what do my clients need to meet from [00:22:00] me? What do my colleagues need from me? What do I need? They're making decisions based on their personal preferences, not necessarily what's actually right. If you asked me, we asked dumb questions, we asked what everybody wanted, and it's not that I don't care what you want, but that's not the only thing we need to consider here.
If you asked me what I want for dinner. I want chocolate for dinner, but I don't eat chocolate for dinner because I know the consequences of that. But I want chocolate for dinner. Okay. We asked a whole lot of people that didn't necessarily know the consequences of the decisions that they were about to make what they wanted.
And I think a lot of people are making decisions that are easy or more comfortable, or they want I also think that work has become unsustainable. This whole notion of commuting five days a week to a place that you're sitting in traffic just endlessly like nonstop, and so much of your day is burnt up in that stuff there's gotta be a better [00:23:00] solution, right?
And so I think we have to find a way that we can meet in the middle. Maybe you're not coming to the office, you know, five days a week. Maybe it's four days a week. Maybe it's three days a week. Maybe you're only working three or four days a week, right? If you're gonna be working longer. If we can leverage artificial intelligence, we have to look at the tools at hand and figure out what we can do to support people having a sustainable lifestyle, but one that also is beneficial for their colleagues and their clients and the business.
Because if the business isn't successful, we're not gonna have jobs. So we have to worry about all of those different things. But I think right now it. Most people are thinking very self ly. They're just thinking about what do I personally want? And we have got to create organizations and places that connect people to something bigger than themselves that they want to be part of.
And that means changing the way we've always done it.
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Edward Wagoner: I'm thinking back to an early mentor who when I was starting to get into sales a little bit, said, wants and needs. You can always sell to what you think a client wants, but the true person that's delivering value will figure out what they need.
Kay Sargent: Yeah.
Edward Wagoner: And help them understand that even if it's a journey to get there, help the client understand what they need.
And I think that's that I was reminded of that as you were talking.
Kay Sargent: Yeah, and I think we just get in such a rut. [00:25:00] Again, snap out of it, right? I don't think anybody values you spending eight hours a day on email, but that's what a lot of people are doing and I think we all need to really think about what is our biggest value and then how much time are we spending that if my value is to win work and I'm spending half an hour a day doing that.
Maybe I need to reallocate, right? Or if my value is educating or mentoring the next generation, and I'm, you know, I'm kind of there, but not really doing that and the space doesn't really support it, right? We need to really focus in and then double down on creating and shaping our days and our spaces to support what it is that we actually value.
Edward Wagoner: It's interesting you say that. I'm reminded the first 10 years of my career there, there was no email and I worked for some very large
Kay Sargent: How would you survive?
Edward Wagoner: It's like, how did we survive?
Kay Sargent: I think about the only [00:26:00] time I travel, like, like how did I get through cities and how did I maneuver without a phone? But we did for a long time.
Edward Wagoner: we did. And my partner would tell you, I can't get through Chicago without mine now. I'm just lost without those directions. And it's funny how we forget what we knew before and how we survived before and have kind of become subservient
Kay Sargent: Yeah
Edward Wagoner: technology.
Kay Sargent: I went to to Asia and my oldest daughter was with me, and after a 17 hour flight from San Francisco to Singapore. We're running to get to our next flight. We had like an hour and we were probably like 10 feet away from the gate, and I looked at my daughter, I said, I left my phone on the plane.
And she's like, oh my God. Like we have to go back and get it. And I'm like, eh, you're with me. I have my laptop. Whatever. We're supposed to be on vacation anyway. Like, whatever. Forget it. She just couldn't even, she could not comprehend that. She could not wrap her head around the fact that I was willing to go without my phone for [00:27:00] weeks.
And I'm like, good riddance.
Edward Wagoner: It's I took a vacation without a device because I was taking a sabbatical and you would've thought I was going through a drug withdrawal. I kept thinking, I've gotta go back and check
Kay Sargent: Yeah.
Edward Wagoner: and my partner was like, why? You're not, you know, you're not working right now. We're on a sabbatical. There's nothing to check.
But I still had that itch. And you know, there's a lot of studies that say it's very akin to, you know, withdrawals or addiction or whatnot. And I think we get so addicted to our tech, just like we get addicted the way we design the spaces that we design. We get called into that loop.
Kay Sargent: Well, probably about six or seven years ago, even before the pandemic, we started to change the way that we designed spaces because I got so sick of just seeing rows and rows of benching. And look, the reason we have benching is because London ran outta space.
30 years ago. Right? Tell somebody in Texas that they have to sit in a bench because somebody in London ran outta space, right? And you, they've got all the space in the world. And they don't have under four systems like they, they do in [00:28:00] Europe. So we really started to challenge this and it just kind of became the default, right?
Like of the largest rectangular table you could shove into every conference room with a maximum number of chairs and rows of benching. And it's like, what? Why? And so literally, if you wanna see me go Flying monkey, show me a testament that looks like that. And we have totally changed all of our processes to really get to better results.
There is a science behind what we do as designers, and I don't think we've leaned into that enough. And a lot of the thought leadership we're doing right now around whether it's future casting, whether it's designing for neurodiversity and sensory processing and cognitive wellbeing, whether it's regeneration.
Whether it's evidence-based design and coming up with those solutions is really to come to and to help us create spaces that are more fit for purpose, that are more authentic to who our clients really are and are more reflective of what they actually need and will help people function at a higher [00:29:00] level.
And I'm gonna go back to the AI thing. If I'm just following trends, go ahead and do regenerative AI to create your spaces all you want. 'Cause that's what they're gonna do. They're gonna pull trends from the past. If you wanna look forward and you wanna think about what's coming and you wanna be more reflective of who you are and have a deeper understanding, then you have to have a designer that really truly understands that.
And I can take the same ingredients and give it to a master chef. A five-year-old and I guarantee you're not gonna get the same dish, right? So right now generative AI is giving me that five-year-old menu, right? Where I think designers who are really tapping into the science of design and evidence-based solutions are kind of creating that master chef solution.
And eventually artificial intelligence will catch up with that to some degree, but we really understand who we're designing for. [00:30:00] Humans because we're,
Edward Wagoner: Example, you know, a good master chef, a good master designer will figure out the space you need end up wanting,
Kay Sargent: yeah,
Edward Wagoner: chef could figure out how to work chocolate into
Kay Sargent: I know. That's what I really want for dinner.
Edward Wagoner: So there's, there are people that are listening to us right now that are, you know, they don't have the decades of experience that we do, but they do see a need for change. How would you advise someone that wants to have an influence on their organization?
They want them to think differently. How can they influence their leadership to think differently, to take their needs into account, to, to listen to this younger generation?
Kay Sargent: Yeah. Be curious. Be curious about the experiences and the expertise of the older generation. Be curious about the things that are yet to come and ask better questions. Why. Why do we have, you know, this huge rectangular table in a room for [00:31:00] gathering and why aren't we thinking about this? And I think the curiosity has really fueled my career.
You know, I think every now and then a client will ask a question that will put me off on a tangent that just totally changes everything and takes us down a different path. Those gotta be really good questions, by the way, but they are. And I think it's important to think about what if. What if we have people that are living to a hundred?
What does that mean and what does that look like? What if we can't have cars and cities anymore because of climate change? What if we start having more autonomous vehicles? Right? So, so start playing out those scenarios and start thinking about what is likely to happen. And what does that actually mean and what is the ramifications?
And this is where I get really nervous because I have five kids. My oldest daughter was probably in third grade when they went to standardized testing [00:32:00] and they stopped teaching kids to ask what if, and they started drilling them with facts so they could pass standardized tests. But. I can ask any question to Google or chat GPT and get an answer.
It's the what if, and what does that mean? That ability to ponder and to put things together in a brand new way that people haven't necessarily thought of, that's where the real power. And the interesting stuff happens, right? I mean, what if you have a whole generation that doesn't have a lot of kids?
What does that mean to the workforce and what does that mean to your retirement plan and your ability to groom the next generation? What if we only did work four days a week? What could that be? Right? Do we, could we have a whole new renaissance? Because people actually now have time to invest in the arts and music and all of these wonderful things?
What if some of this stuff with artificial intelligence. Goes awry. You know, what if and I think that's really, I think, the power that we need to think [00:33:00] about. And we do a lot of future casting sessions, and I will say that. I love it when the executives, 'cause it's usually the C-suite that we're doing this with, brings in kind of their up and coming leadership teams.
And we often find that the existing C-suite is so focused on the share price and what's happening right now and the return, right. 'cause that's what they're being judged on. But it's that down generation that is thinking about, yeah. What about the longevity imperative and what about artificial intelligence and what about sustainability or, you know, all of these things that could happen.
And so I think we have to hit this on multiple levels, and I think we have to tap into the energy and the excitement and the ability to think outside of the box of some of these younger folks and pull it all together to create better scenarios about what we could be dealing with and thinking about what's possible.
Edward Wagoner: What if we all snapped out of it and felt differently? I love [00:34:00] that. IFMA has a group of rapid fire questions they've given me to ask so, you've been named a global influencer and we're gonna go to dinner. You get to pick the place. What's your favorite food or what type of cuisine are we going to eat? You get to pick what I'm going to eat for dinner. I already know chocolate's gonna be involved somewhere.
Kay Sargent: the only time my children have ever had an intervention with me because I tend to be a cereal eater, not breakfast cereal, but like I go back to the same place. So because I travel so much and I never can control what I eat or where I eat when I am home, El Paso, Tex-Mex taco get like totally down for it.
Edward Wagoner: We're going to Tex-Mex next time we're
Kay Sargent: Alright, good. I'm doing it.
Edward Wagoner: being a global influencer means you are constantly learning. What's something you're learning right now, professionally or personally?
Kay Sargent: Neuroaesthetics you know, we've done a ton of research around neurodiversity. And continuing to learn that we're doing more research on [00:35:00] minorities and typically, you know, historically marginalized populations and the impact of neuroaesthetics as well just on us and how we function and how we feel like happiness, beauty, and joy, and what that means for us.
Edward Wagoner: This is not a rapid fire question, but it that research will actually influence and change how you think about workplaces because as we become more aware of neurodiverse populations and inclusion and leveraging their abilities, which quite frankly of them have abilities I don't have, especially when we
Kay Sargent: Yes.
Edward Wagoner: about data that's gonna influence workplace design pretty radically.
Is it not?
Kay Sargent: Yeah, so we have eight years of research on this. Just published a book on neurodiversity and inclusion. And it has absolutely fundamentally reshaped how we design everything airports. sporting arenas. Workplaces, healthcare, hospitality everything, there's not a single practice within our firm that has not been impacted by this and is not thinking differently about how we design [00:36:00]spaces.
And it's not just for people that are neuro divergent. I don't know a single person that isn't impacted by light, sound, temperature, nor, you know, all of those things. We're being overwhelmed by those things, and we need to be able to create spaces that have a positive impact on people, not a negative one.
Edward Wagoner: I love that. I mean, we're all different, unique people, and
Kay Sargent: Absolutely. Everyone is neurodiverse. We're just not all neuro divergent. Okay.
Edward Wagoner: I love that. Next question. It's probably never been as challenging in our industry as it is right now. What motivates you to come to work every day?
Kay Sargent: My curiosity and I'm gonna, I'm gonna say like, we always tend to think, oh, this is the most challenging period. Look I remember, and I remember one time there was a a group of young millennials like 10 years ago. We were talking about, you know, how tech savvy they were. We went from drafting no internet and no computers.
To CAD and [00:37:00] bim, right? That was a pretty radical shift, and so I think we've had challenges before in our industry, maybe just to a different degree. I think the challenge now is that everybody thinks they're an expert in workplace and everything is being questioned.
Edward Wagoner: So we talked a lot about future of
Kay Sargent: Yeah.
Edward Wagoner: about the future of corporate real estate and facilities management?
Kay Sargent: I think our industry is right for change. I think we are stuck in a rut. I think we are not delivering things fast enough. We are not being responsive enough. We are not really truly addressing the issues of the day, and we have been saying for six years, so maybe we missed it a little bit, but we're saying this could be our Kodak moment, where we fundamentally know that everything that about what we do is shifting and changes and needs to change, but we don't know how to, or we're so invested in the existing system that we can't.
I think we really have to reinvent ourselves before it is done to us changes.
Edward Wagoner: love that. [00:38:00] You know, as you were speaking, and you didn't ask me this question, but I'll give you my perspective on the
Kay Sargent: Yes, please. What's your perspective?
Edward Wagoner: for so long, facility managers have been like the back office of the back office. Nobody's ever reached out to a facility manager that I know of and said, I had a great day in the office.
Everything was perfect. I loved the air conditioning because I do love my air conditioning. I was able to find my desk. It's always a complaint.
Always about,
Kay Sargent: It's a thankless job.
Edward Wagoner: you know, cut cost.
Kay Sargent: Yeah.
Edward Wagoner: If you think about the impact facility managers have, they manage the workplaces that our people, which is one of the biggest cost in corporations, have the compensation cost.
They manage the real estate, which is another huge bucket of cost. And now we're bringing so much technology into the buildings. Another big bucket of cost. There is so much influence facility managers could have where they need to be. the front office, helping the people in the front office understand the opportunities in our workplaces that impact three of the biggest buckets of [00:39:00] cost. The only reason corporations have space is to produce their goods or services that their customers are buying. So ultimately. It's about you and me and everybody else that's buying whatever from whatever company. Facility managers impact every person, client, employee, associate with that company.
And I think there's a huge opportunity.
Kay Sargent: I had this conversation at lunch with someone who runs a very large government facility and you know, I think we take for granted how smoothly things run.
Until they don't. Some of those core fundamental things that just help us get by every single day. And we've just taken that for granted.
Edward Wagoner: I think that's an excellent reminder that if you're looking for technology people or real estate people, there are a lot of people in the public sector that are probably looking for new opportunities and may not know how to reach into the private sector. So a great opportunity for those of
Kay Sargent: Yep.
Edward Wagoner: are [00:40:00] looking for more talent.
Kay Sargent: The, these guys have kept buildings that are, that haven't been renovated in 40 and 50 years running. That's an art.
Edward Wagoner: Yes. Love that. Alright, last question. If you were to write a book, and I know you have written books, but if you were to write another book,
Kay Sargent: Yes.
Edward Wagoner: would it be about?
Kay Sargent: I didn't wanna write this one, but I was goaded into it. The book that I really wanna write is, they haven't killed me yet, and stories about all the stuff that I've been through with my five kids and the fact that I'm still standing here and they haven't killed me yet, even though no matter how hard they've tried in many cases, my, my oldest son set the house on fire once and.
In the way to the ambulance. I'm like, my God, what else can happen in my life? Like, just how much crazier can it be? And he said you know, oh, you're gonna look back on this one day and laugh. And I said, if I have a brain cell left to even remember it. And he [00:41:00] said, well, just start writing it down. And so that night I started and within a few months I had 200 pages of stories that my kids had put me through, and then I put my pen down.
For 10 years, and I haven't picked it back up. I have a whole list of new things that I need to write, but the other night my kids were challenging me on a story that I was telling about their childhood and I said, well, let's go see what I wrote in real time. And so I pulled the book out, but they had no idea existed.
And now they're all like, what is this book? And what are these stories like, what is this? Right? But. Mom was right, like mom's memory was better than the five-year-old's memory about what happened at that point. So yeah, that's the book I'd write.
Edward Wagoner: I love it. And you know that actually works for career too.
Kay Sargent: Right.
Edward Wagoner: I think I think you need to write that book.
I, I know I would certainly read it. And you know, those stories that show real people, the personalities
Are some of the best ones.
Kay Sargent: Well, I will tell you in the book that we did write about [00:42:00] neurodiversity, I do tell stories about my family and several people have said that's the part that they really resonated with them the most. But I will say that. When we were preparing it, our chief legal counselor was one that had read the book and she called me one day before it came out.
She goes, Kate, have your sons like read this? And I said, well, they read the parts about them, but they haven't read the rest. And they're like, she's like, are they okay with it? And I said, yeah. I mean, they read it and they're like, and they've signed the waivers. And I'm like, okay, now you're freaking me out.
What's she was, it's just really personal. And so I thought about it and I called my youngest son, who's the only one that would care. The other two were like, yeah, whatever. I don't care. And I called him and I said, you know, you know that I'm putting this in the book, and you're okay with that, right? And he goes, yeah, I mean, who's gonna read it?
And I'm like, well, I hope somebody reads it. And he goes, yeah, none of my friends are ever gonna read it, so what do I care? And I'm just like, all right. Okay. Well, there you go.
Edward Wagoner: What's the [00:43:00] name of the book?
Kay Sargent: Designing neuro Inclusive Workplaces.
Edward Wagoner: And is it available on Amazon?
Kay Sargent: Absolutely.
Edward Wagoner: This
absolutely delightful. It is always so wonderful to be around you, to be challenged, but also the way that you deliver it is such a wonderful, refreshing way, and I really appreciate you taking your time to help people understand
Kay Sargent: More than happy to.
Edward Wagoner: to be a global influencer and how they can be an influence in our industry.
Congratulations again, and thank you for your
Kay Sargent: Thank you very much for having me.
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