Host Wayne Whitzell sits down with Kathryn Lopez to discuss empathetic leadership, psychological safety and what it takes to lead high-performing facility management teams through pressure, change and complexity.
What does strong leadership really look like in facility management?
In this episode of Connected FM, host Wayne Whitzell welcomes Kathryn Lopez for a candid conversation on leadership, resilience and the human side of facility management.
Drawing from decades of experience in global FM leadership, Kathryn shares lessons on staying calm under pressure, creating psychological safety for teams and developing people through mentorship and trust. She explains why great leaders “take the bullets and give the credit,” how mistakes can become growth opportunities and why empathy is essential in today’s workplace.
The conversation also explores how AI is beginning to transform facility management workflows, from streamlining communication to delivering faster operational insights. Wayne and Kathryn discuss the growing role of data, digital tools and “smart buildings” in attracting the next generation of facility management professionals into the industry.
Whether you lead a global portfolio, manage an in-house FM team or are growing into leadership for the first time, this episode offers practical insights on building trust, navigating challenges and leading with humanity.
This episode is sponsored by SiteMap®, powered by GPRS. Learn more at sitemap.com/ifma
Timestamps:
Kathryn Lopez: [00:00:00] the other thing that I stress is, kill the monster while it's a baby. We're all have issues and stuff that we deal with every day. It's the absolute nature of our business, but if you deal with that issue while it's small and don't allow it to grow into some big hairy thing that's going to eat you, it's going to be a lot better.
Host: Welcome to ConnectedFM, a podcast connecting you to the latest insights, tools, and resources to help you succeed in facility management. This podcast is brought to you by IFMA, the leading professional association for facility managers. If you are ready to grow your network and advance in your career, go to ifma.org to get started.
What does strong leadership really look like in facility management? In today's episode, host Wayne Whitzell welcomes Kathryn Lopez, a global account director for JLL, for a candid conversation on [00:01:00] leadership, resilience, and the human side of facility management. Drawing from decades of experience in global FM leadership, Kathryn shares lessons on staying calm under pressure, creating psychological safety for teams, and developing people through mentorship and trust.
She explains why great leaders take the bullets and give the credit, how mistakes can become growth opportunities, and why empathy is essential in today's workplace. Whether you lead a global portfolio, manage an in-house FM team, or are growing into leadership for the first time, this episode offers practical insights on building trust, navigating challenges, and leading with humanity.
Now, let's get into it.
Wayne Whitzell: Hello, everyone. Welcome to another edition of the Connected FM podcast. I am your host, Wayne Whitzell, and I am very happy today to introduce not only an FM powerhouse and [00:02:00] longtime IFMA member, but, someone I, look up to in a lot of ways, has been a mentor to me, and, consider a, a good friend. I'd like to introduce everyone here to Kathryn Lopez.
Kathryn Lopez: Hello, everyone. Happy to be here.
Wayne Whitzell: Yeah. We're glad to make this happen and then get you here to talk to the folks today. So listen, global account director with Jones Lang Lasalle. That's, that's a pretty heavy title . Anything but the word global in front of it, and then you have account director after it, that's a pretty weighty, a weighty title there.
Kathryn Lopez: It requires a great deal of time during the day, all 24 hours of them.
Wayne Whitzell: Yes. You know, there's a lot of people... I remember, uh, we did a presentation on what global FM was, and we did this for the Silicon Valley chapter, and there was a lot of people there that I think had designs or intentions to take their career to that level, but we had four or five, uh, folks up there, I think we had Melody Spradlin, uh, John Martins, and some other folks up there, and they really laid out what it really looks like.
And, and you, you touched on one of the [00:03:00] major things. It's an around the clock, uh, issue. A lot of people left there feeling, "Okay, maybe I should postpone this role for a little while longer," uh, 'cause it's in- intense. You know, so, so that's, that's been a, a, a... You know, you've been in Jones Lang Lasalle for quite some time, and, uh, I, I know you've been at IFMA even longer than that now.
You and I are getting to the point where we're da- you know, dating our, our IFMA history here, but tell me, how long has it been for you? 'Cause I know it's longer than mine.
Kathryn Lopez: I joined in 1991.
Wayne Whitzell: When there's a 90, it's,
Kathryn Lopez: it's- Exa- I debated. I, I was about to say a long, long time, but, you know, it, it's been fun. The, it's...
The part of my career has been IFMA.
Wayne Whitzell: Yeah. Through that time, I, I've, uh... I think I remember the first time we connected was at a World Workplace conference. I want to say it was Toronto maybe or San Diego. Maybe Toronto. I don't know. It was so, so long ago, but, uh, but over that period of time, I mean, you've [00:04:00] been involved in so many different things, uh, in IFMA, the F- the foundation as a trustee, advisory committees, and so many things that I think there's a...
People like you and, and, and people who have built IFMA, put in so much time with it, sometimes you say, "I could touch just about anything at IFMA," and if you look, you'll find a Kathryn fingerprint on it or a John Martins fingerprint on it. You know, you might not... The, the youngsters might not know why...
"Well, why are we doing it this way?" You know, blame Kathryn. She was the one that came up with that. But I wanna talk about something here with you in specific. And, and one of the things I've observed in you all of these years is you have a calm presence when- The fires are breaking out, the ground is shaking underneath, the client is frustrated.
You have people that are, uh, on your team that might be frustrated. And, uh, as I watch and observe you, you always are this calm f- uh, rock in storms. I, I... T- talk to me about that. I mean, is, is that something that is [00:05:00] your, your personality, something that took you a while to develop? And, and I mean, y- so just talk to me about that s- I call it a skill, but it might just be a, a, you know, a gift the way I see it in you.
Kathryn Lopez: Well, first of all, thank you. I appreciate that. I believe it's a skill that I have developed. There is this exercise I've done a long, long time ago where you put your hands in front of you and I tell you to push your right hand against your left hand. Go ahead and push, push. Didn't tell you to hold your hand against it, but go ahead and push hard.
Well, that is, that's human nature. When you are pushed against, it's human nature to push back, and that isn't always constructive or helpful. That pushing back part can be yourself pushing back. So again, it's just human nature to do that. And a long time ago when I had my own business, I learned that valuable skill of being able to be calm, don't push back, try to get the facts.
D- I mean, you can have the flippers going under the water like a duck, right? But if you're calm and presenting a, [00:06:00] a facade... Not a facade. Fa- that's the wrong word, but the, the actual intent of being calm and listening, people will tend to calm around you. They're like, "Okay, there's someone that's going to get it.
Maybe not be in charge, but they get it and they'll help me." That goes a lot farther than trying to whip anybody up around you.
Wayne Whitzell: Yeah, it g-
Kathryn Lopez: It's served me very well for a long time.
Wayne Whitzell: Yeah. Yeah, it reminds me of a conversation I had with Mike Petrucci a couple of weeks ago, and we were talking about how energy and positivity are contagious, but so are both ignorance and negativity as well.
It works the, the other way and, and when the problems start raining down, and, and it will happen. I mean, that's part of the nature of our business. That's, uh, you know... I have a friend of mine that, uh, when he interviews for jobs and people are telling him the role and he, he knows what it is, he says, "This sounds to me about a $200,000 problem that you have."
He knows what he's going to have to absorb and transmute back into [00:07:00] calmness, and I think that's really what I, I hear when you say that, is the pushing is going to come at you and you have a choice. You either meet that and create more of a potential negative energy in that, or you remain calm, you absorb any maybe of that negativity and transmute it back, especially when it comes to your own team, your internal team.
So- Exactly ... and being in JLL, you're kind of... You're, you're, you're in a crossfire role between the c- the client FTEs and, and your own staff and so forth. And you mentioned once to me the term smokejumper And I've, I've since taken that... Uh, you, you don't realize, you s- you throw these little things as, like, a throwaway line to me, and I incorporate them into my vocabulary.
But, uh, you mentioned a smokejumper and some- and, you know, talk, talk to me a little bit about that kind of a role and what that is because I think a lot of maybe our folks who are on internal FM teams might not realize some of the big, broad challenges that are faced by, uh, outsourced IFM companies that are, that are trying to integrate and, [00:08:00] and, and, and execute on their SLAs.
So talk to me a little bit about that concept.
Kathryn Lopez: So a, a smokejumper, uh, it was a fun role to have. It was challenging as all get out because you had to learn the different cultures of the clients you were going to. But the intent of the role was to either work on a specific project that a client had or a specific problem that the account had, and they needed some help and clarity to help solve that issue internally.
Sometimes it was the performance of the account team was not meeting the expectations of the client, so we had to identify where those gaps were. To be honest, coming in as a s- a quasi third party, I could give some clarity to things. I wasn't emotionally invested in either the team or the client yet. I could have a, an opportunity to step back and see the forest for the trees, which was interesting.
Many different types of cultures to deal with, but it was a very interesting role.
Wayne Whitzell: Yeah, that's, [00:09:00] that is. I, I... It's almost like the same thing when you, as an FM, you're trying to get buy-in from, say, the C-suite or senior leadership, and they don't believe you until you bring in an outside consultant. It's, "Oh, well- Exactly
of course, now we believe." But that, that skill set of being able to quickly come into a situation, identify culture, absorb enough of it, and identify problems and concerns. I mean, it might be something as simple as a, you know, contractual mismatch. It could also be, you know, s- uh, a systemic issue or could be a personnel issue.
That, that, being able to take all that kind of holistic approach and view of a business, frankly, is, is, is a, is a pretty interesting skill set to have.
Kathryn Lopez: It's, uh, served me well. I learned a lot in that role, and I'm very happy that I took that challenging role. It was challenging. It, it required me to travel and all of that fun thing, but, you know, it was a good role.
Wayne Whitzell: Yeah. It's almost like a squeaky wheel thing, too. It's, uh, you know, the person that does it and does it well, it's well, let's, let's keeping, keep asking that person to [00:10:00] do it, do it well. Exactly. Yeah, it's a merry-go-round. Well, you know, we, we, we, uh, touched on, you know, your, your, your demeanor as a leader and your...
I mean, this ter- these terms get bandied about, and, and I think that sometimes they're they just become catchphrases, and we don't really unpack them like the word psychological safety. And we say that a lot about, about leadership, but I think unless you've been in a situation where you have not had that or had the good fortune to have psychological safety in your job, you, you appreciate it when it's there.
And shielding your team necessarily- From the bullets, and this is about leadership in general, right? Is I definitely see you as somebody that takes all the bullets, jumps on all the grenades, and steps aside when the credit starts coming. That's what I think a lot of folks don't understand about leadership, is it's, it's, it's, it's not the shiny image portrayal thing.
It's, it's, it's a, a, an issue of suffering in a lot of ways. It's putting others before your- yourself. And you have a, you have a dispersed portfolio that you lead, and you've done that in the past many times. [00:11:00] How do you lead and manage people in disparate geographic locations and still give them that psychological safety and that feeling of, of, of connectedness with you when there's that distance?
Kathryn Lopez: Great question. First of all, wholeheartedly support the idea of taking the bullets and giving the credit. I will take the bullets once or twice, but taking the bullets means they have an opportunity to learn from whatever mistakes there may have been, and I help them take that in, right? I also foster an environment where it's okay to make a mistake, and gosh, I hope you do make a mistake.
And I have that kind of wide-eyed look when I first say that, and I do say it because they're like, "You want me to make a mistake?" I'm like, "Yeah, that means you're trying. You're, you're expanding your comfort zone, and you're doing something that you're not normally doing, and you will learn from it. I don't mind taking the [00:12:00] bullets for you as long as you're learning along the way."
And most people learn by making mistakes. It's just, again, human nature. And the other thing that I stress is, and you've heard me say this before, is kill the monster while it's a baby. We're all have issues and stuff that we deal with every day. It's the absolute nature of our business, but if you deal with that issue while it's small and don't allow it to grow into some big hairy thing that's going to eat you, it's going to be a lot better.
So bring the issues up early, deal with them early, face them, don't try to hide them. Those are all methods that I take with my team very seriously, and I give them the freedom to make mistakes, which I don't think many people actually say out loud, but I think it's important. And then the connection piece for a very far-flung team, to be honest, having face-to-face conversations is the most important thing you can do.
And if you're not in the same city, that [00:13:00] just means you have to increase the frequency at which you have those conversations. So where I might have a once-a-month coffee with my person who's in the cubicle next to me, I'm gonna have biweekly calls with the people that are across the country.
Wayne Whitzell: Yeah.
Spending time with people is so, is so important. And especially- It is ... when we're not all in the same office and getting a read on someone's face, emotions, how they... I mean, see, that is one of the challenging things, because I know good leaders like you, and, and listen, I've, I've been doing this for many years, this particular, I don't wanna call it a tactic, but it's, it's just who I am anymore, is if there's an opportunity to apologize for something- Mm-hmm
make sure you do it. Do it honestly, 'cause if you do a fake, it's, it- p- people sense that. But if you genuinely say, "You know what, Sue? You were 100% right. We should have done it that way. I didn't listen. I was just doing it the way we've always done it, and you were right," that's fostering that kind of culture where it's [00:14:00] okay to admit that you didn't have all the pieces.
You- It's okay to admit that you made a wrong decision, and you don't s- wither up and fly away into ash, which is a scary thing for a lot of people, admitting that you were wrong. It's, it's one of the, surprisingly, the hardest things a human has to do. And, uh, we, we fight it and put up all kinds of buts and ifs and everything in between.
And, and I, I was giving a, a, a talk up at the, uh, IFMA Oregon Symposium a couple of weeks ago, and, uh, the... By the way, those guys are just knocking it out of the park up there. Great chapter if you ever get a chance to talk to 'em. But, uh, it was on leadership and, and I, I tried to sum up what is the threshold when you know you've crossed over into kinda that, uh, elite level leadership, I would say.
And some people would say, "Oh, when you have a large team," or, "Oh, when you're overseeing all this." My take was when something happens that you wanted to happen through your team, and it gets done, and you are more thrilled to let [00:15:00] them take the credit for something that you orchestrated and started up here that ended up happening, and you get so much joy and contentment of just watching it happen.
And I think it's poss- That's it. You can self-reflect. I mean, I see it in your eyes. You're smiling there. That I can tell this is something you've experienced yourself.
Kathryn Lopez: There was my favorite mentorship story, I will say, was, uh, an individual that was, uh, in the Sacramento area, had a run-in with our client.
My boss wanted to fire her immediately. And I said, "No, give me a chance. There's, uh, an opportunity for some development here." And he's like, "Okay. This is gonna be a huge mountain." I said, "Yep, and I will help her every step of the way." I had a conversation with that individual and said, "I'm, I'm here to help you, but you are the one that's going to have to do the heavy lifting here.
You're the one that's gonna have to repair this relationship. You're the one that's gonna have to get these things done. Are you ready for this?" And she said, "Yeah, I am." And she put in the work. [00:16:00] She did the he- heavy lifting, et cetera. The following year, she actually won FM of the Year. For me, that was the best story I could possibly tell.
I had nothing to do with the award Except that I helped her develop as a human being and as a manager, which I was very proud of
Wayne Whitzell: It's that human investment, isn't it? It's one thing to meet, meet your KPIs and everything else, but it's an, it's a whole other ball of wax when a person transforms or grows from some little small thing that, that, that you did.
And, and ultimately you're just one link in a chain because you had people do that for you. And it, it's-
Kathryn Lopez: It's very true. John Martin's a good example of that, one of my mentors that I love and adore
Wayne Whitzell: Absolutely. Yeah, great, great, great example. Yeah, that, uh, that whole concept of, you know, having a, a team that if, if there's the regular contact with them and there's the mission, vision, and values are all understood and agreed, the goals, the KPI-led organization when it's...[00:17:00]
I don't play golf, but I would assume it's like golf when you hit the perfect shot and those moments where you kind of stand up and look and say, "Wait a minute, everybody's rowing in the same direction here. This feels good," you know? And you kinda say, "I want more of this." And, uh, I think the shortcut though a lot of people have taken, and I, I think I could say from some of our conversations in the past you've experienced this, is the shortcut is some leaders opt to become an ogre or a dictator and do things by sheer force of their position on the org chart as opposed to, like you did, getting involved with someone.
And, and I do like the fact that you... It's not a milk toast thing to say, uh, "I'm gonna cover for you, and I'll help you." And it was, "No, I'm gonna walk next to you, okay? And, and then I'm gonna be behind you like this." It's not... Uh, so it's, it's, it's not a milk toast thing and it's not saying, "I'm gonna just take all the bullets randomly."
It's, it's a very strategic approach. But I, I think it, for some people it just becomes second nature. And, and this leads me to my question here, the ogre dictator kind of thing, is [00:18:00] I personally have learned more about leadership by what not to do from the examples I've seen and, and experienced. What's your take on that?
I mean, is this something that you've, uh... I mean, I know in some ways you, you, you may have based on our conversations, but what are you, what are your thoughts on the, the kinda negative, what would it be called? The, the, uh, not the, the... I don't know. There's a mathematical term I'm missing here for... Inversion.
Inverted, right. There it is. There we go. It's in there somewhere, Catherine.
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Kathryn Lopez: What I have [00:19:00]seen is when you take the time and effort to develop, encourage, et cetera, having that kind of positive or empathetic managerial style, you get loyalty and people that will walk through fire for you and your vision.
The inverse of that, I see people doing as little as they can to stay out of the radar or out of the line of sight. Um, they're not very entrenched in the organization. In fact, they kinda have that shield up that says, "If I can just stay behind this thing, I won't get into any trouble." And they just don't feel good about- The work that they're doing or the people that they're working with.
So their tenure at that particular location or job or company is going to be far less than those that feel good about their role, that feel like they're making a positive contribution, that they're feeling heard and understood, as well as valued for the contributions that they [00:20:00] make. I just think you, you get so much more when you are an empathetic leader rather than a dictator.
Wayne Whitzell: A nuanced approach too, where you're- you sense a little bit of drift in someone or you sense a little bit of withholding something or, uh, uh... And, and just getting to the point where you're kind of identifying that subtlety in people is a very sophisticated level of leadership. I mean, to do that, it's just not, you know, "Okay, uh, uh, all, all steam ahead everyone, let's keep pushing.
Get back in the seat and row," as opposed to, "Well, why isn't Kenny rowing as good today?" You know, I, I, uh, uh, that is a, a human-focused, uh, approach, so. All right. So I wanna... I got a, a couple more questions here to ask you. I wanna talk to you to, you know, everybody, we're talking about AI, and, uh, there's a... AI reminds me right now totally of what happened back in 2007 and 2008 where there was sustainability was breaking left and right, and everybody was talking, ev- everything was green, and there was this greenwashing.
I see a lot of AI washing going on now. I see a lot of theory. I see a lot of people talking [00:21:00] theory and not a lot of practical stuff. So I know recently, um, you were instrumental in getting to do a presentation for the East Bay chapter, uh, out here talking about those some things. I know enterprise-wide and, and, and working with your clients, there's a lot of great tools JLL has developed and, and is, uh, leading the charge in that.
But for you personally, are you at the point where AI is making a material difference in your day-to-day in terms of helping you do things better, stronger, faster?
Kathryn Lopez: Absolutely. Um, and I, I'll pick, you know, email is a, a perfect one. You know, you go off on vacation, when you come back and you have 300 emails in your box, your ability to get through that by asking Copilot or whatever agent you're using, "Give me a summary of the emails in my inbox and which ones require the immediate attention."
Well, it happens in, you know, minutes rather than me diving through that for days. That's just one example. If I look at my client and what we're [00:22:00] doing for my client, it's a little mesmerizing. I will say it that way. It still requires human interaction. It's not just data out there running on its own and, and no one needs to do anything.
No. It's, it's providing us with actionable data that we can act on sooner because it's a, a much faster product.
Wayne Whitzell: Yeah. That said, we need to tell more stories about how, how these things are impacting day to day and less about the theory of, "You can do so much with AI." It's I hear so many people saying, "Okay, show me."
Give me an example. Walk me through it. How did you do it? Which tool did you use? So I, I see that being a, a big piece. Uh, and I also have to touch on, um, really the, the foundation's r- role is, you know, uh, obviously research and development, education, getting education programs out there, making people fall faster into FM as a career of choice, you know, all of those things.
But building that pipeline from youth to the role of FM is such a critical piece in all of that. And as someone that, you know, [00:23:00] y- uh, I'm putting myself in this bucket too, Kathryn, you know, we've seen a couple generations of workforce, and we've kinda worked, worked with them, and we've seen some things.
And I'm not one to really put bookends around a generation and say they all act this way. I just, I, I haven't seen that in practicality. But I see that there's an opportunity right now for FM as a, as a career choice that we haven't had before, a confluence of things, the price of education, kind of the, uh, reaction.
College admissions are trending down. They're saying in the next three years we're gonna really see some, you know, hemorrhaging there in terms of, of, of, uh, of, of s- people attending. Where do you see FM having a touchpoint to attract more people to the industry? And as a former trustee on the foundation, how do you see, maybe with that expertise you have, how can we generate more of a buzz around FM as a career of choice?
Kathryn Lopez: Honestly, I think it starts younger and younger. Um, you know, everybody's playing video games and all that kind of stuff. Well, buildings are [00:24:00] becoming more and more computers with buildings attached to them, right? At our jobs, and we're talking AI for a reason, we're using data every single day to see can we cut 30 minutes out of our HVAC system so that we can save X amount of dollars over the year.
Those kinds of computerized or exciting AI tours of buildings and all of that kind of stuff is far more interesting for a lot of younger kids than we might expect, because they're already dealing with the video games and the computers and stuff. Why do you think I go to my granddaughter, say, "I need help setting up my, my TV," right?
She knows how to do it better than I do. But my point, though, is we have to start earlier and explain that it, it is not going into a boiler room and just turning a wrench. There's far more involved in this now than, you know, 20, 30 years ago when, when I started. [00:25:00]
Wayne Whitzell: Yeah, that, that- Easy ... I, I think it's a really good point, because if we're, if our educational content to the, to the younger people or, or even people transitioning into the career field is, "Okay, here's a chiller.
Here's how a chiller works," versus saying, "Here's a digital twin of a building. Check this out." You know, uh, here's, you can ask these what if questions. And I think of, there's a lot of great software out there. Uh, I had the opportunity to look at some from a company. Founder showed me the entire tool, and I was, I was blown away.
And I said, "This is what we need to be showing everybody, because this really shows everybody what you can do- With AI and you're building. And it's the gamification of FM, and maybe having a, a, a course beyond just O&M and project management and, and construction management in, in the universities and college.
Maybe we, we really need to focus on that. And I, I did hear somewhere, and I have to get clarification on this, that some of the... I won't name names, but some of the companies that specialize in this kind of software and bolt-on DAS systems and things like that [00:26:00] are offering these to universities as part of the training.
'Cause that's smart for them, right? They're gonna get people familiar with their tools who then go into the workplace. But yeah, I think you're onto something. The gamification of FM, I, I'm gonna, uh, call that. So all right, I'm coming to an end here. I've got one, one more thing to say to you, and, and that is kind of circling back to really where, where we started.
I think kindness is such an important thing in any, you know, any profession. Even though you say, "Well, gosh, could you find that in the legal profession? Could you find that in accounting where it's just numbers?" But I've just seen it so often, Catherine, that, that even sprinkling a little bit of just humanity on something opens up so much.
And I, I, I just, I... Like I said, I see that in you there and, and I see that as part of how you just are. I, I would perish to think that maybe it's like, well, you intentionally developed that skill because it's almost like a, I don't know, I think it's a gift, uh, with you in particular. But, but, but just d- talk to me about the importance of, of kindness and just, uh, kind [00:27:00] of radiating that and, and, and, and when...
And even doing it when it's difficult, when it's hard, when it's, you know, maybe when the, the hand pushes a little harder back on you than it normally does.
Kathryn Lopez: Um, well, I had a, an experience fairly recently, and I think that's where the empathy part comes in. You never know what people are dealing with in their day-to-day life.
People are getting out of bed, and they're having to deal with all kinds of crap at home, right? You just, you don't know what people are going through. And I'll, I'll select myself, right? I've had some pretty significant losses in my life, and if I did not share that with people, they would think I was perfectly fine over here.
But no, I'm having a bad day. I'm thinking about my husband who passed away, or I'm thinking about my son who passed away. And those kinds of kind of aha moments for people are like, "Oh, that's what you mean about people having stuff on their plate that you don't recognize Which is true, we all do, and I don't care who you are.
If you've [00:28:00] never had a loss like I have, you have other things on your plate that people don't know, because you separate work from home, and that's fine, but you still have... You carry that home stuff with you into the office. You just don't tell people about it. So everybody does it. If you have some sense of forgiveness or understanding of what people are going through, it allows you to kinda loosen up on that pushback mode, right?
You go, "Okay, there might be something else that they're going through that I, I don't understand. Let me see what I can help over here," and kinda redirect that negativity or whatever you wanna call it, that, that kind of push against me. Let's see if I can redirect that into something more positive.
Wayne Whitzell: So true, and, and, uh, you know, you've done that for me.
I know we've had some moments where you've been there for me, handling some, some difficult challenges that I've had, and because you've dug, dug deep in, in your own situation, it enables you to feed others from, from that. And, uh, you and actually another friend of ours, Joy Nasith. I don't know. I got, I have tear stains on both of your [00:29:00] shoulders, so, but-
Kathryn Lopez: Just an amazing person.
I, I try to live up to her standard every day.
Wayne Whitzell: Ridiculously high standard there, yeah. Well, well, Catherine, this has a, been a pleasure, and I'm so, so happy that we got to do this and share, uh, a little bit of Catherine Lopez with the Connected FM audience. I'm just, uh, grateful to know you as a friend and grateful that you're in our industry and, and out there being an example, so thank you for joining us today.
Kathryn Lopez: My absolute pleasure. Thank you for inviting me, and, uh, be safe, be kind.
Wayne Whitzell: See everyone on the next Connected FM podcast
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