In this episode, host Sam Beere, COO of JEB Group, joins his colleagues Andy Russell, Group Strategy and Growth Director, and Lim Shu Xin, Regional Sustainability, ESG, and Carbon Specialist, to discuss the importance of circularity in the real estate and construction industry. The conversation emphasizes the critical role of facilities managers in driving sustainable practices and the misconception that circular economy practices are complex and costly. They also explore the barriers and opportunities to adopting circular practices, the importance of early adoption, collaboration, as well as the potential for business opportunities by rethinking waste as a resource.
In this episode, host Sam Beere, COO of JEB Group, joins his colleagues Andy Russell, Group Strategy and Growth Director, and Lim Shu Xin, Regional Sustainability, ESG, and Carbon Specialist, to discuss the importance of circularity in the real estate and construction industry. The conversation emphasizes the critical role of facilities managers in driving sustainable practices and the misconception that circular economy practices are complex and costly. They also explore the barriers and opportunities to adopting circular practices, the importance of early adoption, collaboration, as well as the potential for business opportunities by rethinking waste as a resource.
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Andy Russell: [00:00:00] I think the biggest stakeholder in all of this is the facilities manager. They are the teams that are on the ground able to drive that change up the chain within their business and down the chain into their supply chain.
They are the guys that are lovingly caring for these buildings and the product that's in them. I think they are critical to this change. And the reuse of products starts with the correct procurement of the product in the first place. Design for reuse. Procure for reuse. Buy for reuse.
Have the end of life of the product. In mind at the start of your journey with that product and then, you know, we're forward planning the solution effectively.
Host: Welcome to Connected FM, a podcast connecting you to the latest insights, tools, and resources to help you succeed in facility management. This podcast is brought to you by IFMA, the leading professional association for facility [00:01:00] managers. If you're ready to grow your network and advance in your career, go to ifma. org to get started. In today's episode, host Sam Beere, COO of JEB Group, joins his colleagues Andy Russell, Group Strategy and Growth Director, and Lim Shu Xin, Regional Sustainability, ESG, and Carbon Specialist, to discuss the importance of circularity in the real estate and construction industry. The conversation emphasizes the critical role of facility managers in driving sustainable practices, and the misconception that circular economy practices are complex and costly. They also explore the barriers and opportunities to adopting circular practices, as well as the importance of early adoption, collaboration, and the potential for business opportunities by rethinking waste as a resource.
Now, let's get into it.
Sam Beere: So welcome, thanks for joining us today for what we hope will be an engaging and exciting discussion. My name is Sam Beere, COO [00:02:00] of JEB Group, and I'm delighted to be joined by Andy Russell and Shu Xin Lim, and together we'll be exploring the concept of circularity and the issue of waste that's generated within the real estate and construction industry.
A disturbing fact, globally, the construction industry generates an estimated 1. 3 billion tons of waste annually. Today's discussion will look at how we view waste and ways to change perception, to reimagine and rethink its value as a resource. But before we get started, I'd like to hand over to Andy and Shu Xin so they can introduce themselves.
Andy Russell: I'm Andy Andy Russell. I'm the Group Strategy and Growth Director at Jeb. I'm based in Hong Kong. I have a passion for sustainability, and I've spent 25 years in the office furniture industry.
Lim Shu Xin: Hello, everyone. My name is Shu Xin. I am a Malaysia born Singaporean who now also works in Hong Kong with Jeb Group as their Regional Sustainability, ESG, and [00:03:00] Carbon Specialist.
On my day to day role, I Do raise awareness of sustainability be internally as well as externally and specialize in carbon footprinting. And it's definitely excited to be here to share more about some of the innovative practices that we do in our organization and In different industries that I've worked so far.
Sam Beere: Thanks both. That's awesome. So let's dive in, get the conversation going. So there are three main topics that we're going to cover today. First one is that there is a common misconception about circular economy, i. e. that it's complex, it's costly, and it's not always applicable to industry. Number two is there are barriers and opportunities to adopt A circular economy or a circular approach within business.
What are they and how can businesses benefit? And then finally, we'll wrap up with some strategies of how we adopt, how we engage and influence our stakeholders to be able to take secular practice forwards. So why don't we start [00:04:00] and look at understanding the principle guys? Why don't you explain what is circularity?
Andy Russell: I think at its core, circularity is a necessity. I think, you know, some people that say, unless we go fully circular the game is over for the planet. I think maybe that's taking things a bit Too far, but it's it's definitely one of the key methods to the world achieving a faster route towards net zero.
The circular economy is an amazing business model. There's a growth model around the world. It's estimated it could generate 4. 5 trillion American dollars to the economy and you know, it's a regenerative process by design is breaking the linear manufacturing model that take waste mace make waste model and is really just, you know, trying to always look at reuse before any other method.
Lim Shu Xin: Yeah, to chime in on that, there's actually a statistic by Ellen MacArthur Foundation, which states that approximately 80 percent of furniture goes into the landfill. [00:05:00] And I think this statistic really brings back the point that waste and furniture waste is such a significant problem of our industry.
And I would presume much of that actually is occurring in where we are at today, which is Asia Pacific.
Sam Beere: Fantastic. Well, we obviously have a better handling and understanding of circularity. Thanks for helping confirm, but let's start to, if we have a look at some of the challenges perhaps that we have with circularity and how we can assist. So there is this misconception about It holds people back to to be able to embrace change is that circularity essentially is expensive and the willing to willingness to pay for those sustainable services or practices perhaps because they're undervalued or they're not seen as a priority.
I think. We've had experience. As you've seen, we've had experience within projects that we run historically more so that if the budget isn't very clear at the beginning of a project, then being able to ensure sustainable practices or circular [00:06:00] practices are actually embedded within the project cycle.
Now, the good news is, as we're seeing, as this develops and we start to catch up, if you like, with other parts of the world, it's at the forefront of clients minds, it's at the forefront of the stakeholders who are involved in the process to ensure that we can make sure that circular processes or circular strategies are actually embedded within the process of delivering projects.
I wonder what you think on that, Shu Xin.
Lim Shu Xin: Yeah, echoing on what you have mentioned, I think cost is really a Something that is in the forefront of a lot of people's mind and everything in the world has a price tag, which is true. But there's a Chinese saying that says like, which in that translate to spending money where it matters the most. So in the knife situation is actually on the blade. So coming back to sustainability, I think it's spending money where it's relevant. And for us in JEB group, something that is very close to our belief is [00:07:00] getting our methodology as well as data third party verified. So, in the situation of ISOs, we have recently completed both the ISO 14064 1 and 67, which are both on carbon footprinting of our organization footprint as well as products.
So, getting This verification by third party, it really adds on extra layer of credibility for our stakeholders like clients and also organizations to trust in what we are doing and allowing us to continue to drive that sustainable conversations with them. So that we are not talking about just on the layer of cost, but also seeing how sustainability can be an investment for the future.
Sam Beere: I think you've raised some really good points there, Shu Xin. I think it's also sometimes difficult to translate the value. I mean, you've talked about practices or methods for us to be able to show that, like the ISOs, like the standards. Andy, I'm wondering what your view is on why you think it's so, so difficult or perceived to be so difficult to [00:08:00] embed circularity within industry or.
Convince business leaders. If you like to take it on board,
Andy Russell: Yeah. I mean, we encountered this every day the comments around price. And I think there's two points. There's the ultimate price that we pay for not moving in the right direction, which is the price to the environment, to the planet, to our futures. But I think it's just easier to buy new products.
It's, you know, it's what we've always done. You know, we've run procurement exercises, we've run tender exercises, et cetera. There's a tried and tested way to run a fit out or to redevelop space. We have to just try and think differently. We have to try and take time to step back and onboard different ways of thinking.
You have all the stock typically. Within your own estates. It's the use of that product. It's the engaging with bodies that with companies that can support you in that journey to circularity. You can take an old office [00:09:00] chair. That's 5678 years old and literally turn it back to nearly new and give it another 20 years of life.
Impacting your bottom line and impacting your businesses carbon footprint. If you look at the IFRS guidelines, the reporting of carbon on balance sheets, this is becoming something that's critical to certainly listed businesses around the globe. Another significant thing. Driven by, by government globally to try and make an impact to this change, but cost as Shu Xin quite rightly put is you have to think about what you're spending your money on prioritize it effectively.
You can get amazing outcomes with what you've already got, and it can look really different to how it maybe looks just now. With the right team on board.
Sam Beere: I think you raised some really cool points there on on exactly how we perceive or how we look at the items we have around us in our [00:10:00] inventory. And definitely there's a link between assets, depreciation, and then value, if you like, or a physical value. I think it really challenges our circularity to, to view waste and resources in a different way.
So keen to talk a little bit more about those challenges and how we overcome them. And Andy wondered what your thoughts were on the pillars, which were involved in making those decisions or impacting the ability to make that change.
Andy Russell: Yeah, I think the kind of three pillars that make the, you know, make up the triangle government finance and industry are the key driving factors behind helping business, helping economies to drive this change and guiding the routes to, to that change industry is doing a great job.
We. You know, 10 years ago with tender for office, fit out projects and, you know, the tick box exercises off of sustainability, which would always be there. But really, at the end of the day, it came down to came down to price. The, you know, that got put to one side. [00:11:00] Really since the turn of the the, you know, the pandemic we started to see that being much more important to businesses driving change down through their supply chains, creating.
Phenomenal tenders phenomenal from the perspective of the environment that really made suppliers step up and change the way that they work finance. Also, making big leaps, IFRS guidelines, you know, a huge step in the right direction green loans, green finance dictating to businesses that they have to make positive impacts to be able to access that money at better rates.
Policy government policy around the world is different. You know, some governments are a long way ahead. I lived in Scotland and the UK for nearly all of my working career until the last four weeks in Hong Kong. And, you know, it's a very advanced system. You know, circularity is really taking off there.
It's creating employment. It's [00:12:00] creating GDP growth. If you think about what drives us as people, You know, it's capitalism as businesses. It's capitalism. It's growth. I think circularity is a misconception that is, well, it needs to stop everything and we just need to reuse everything that we had before.
It's not. It creates a huge economic model that that can employ huge amounts of people and upskill, maybe disadvantaged people. You know, if I remember back to trying to find a French polisher once, I'm sure in my dad's, youth, that would have been an easy task. There would have been lots in a city.
Now, they're like hen's teeth to find. So those kind of skills build the circular economy and it gives us that opportunity to take a step back literally in time to what we used to do to be able to take a big step forward and make a massive impact in the process.
Sam Beere: You pick up on it. Yeah. And then you pick up on a nice point that [00:13:00] actually, which is something we forget is those types of skills, French polish of being one of them, kind of a lost aura or an art that's slowly disappearing, but reality is they become more valuable now. And that comes back to the discussion and opportunities and where people essentially have, you know, opportunity to create maybe new businesses or develop new practices to be able to benefit from what is a huge driving business.
And if you like overall as an opportunity, you know, sustainability or circularity is a huge opportunity. Shu Xin, sorry, you were about to, you were about to talk and share something else as well.
Lim Shu Xin: Yeah, I think the point on social is something that I personally or otherwise a lot of people in the sustainability world tend to slightly forget about, and we focus so much on environment or carbon footprinting, but that's really the pillar on community involvement or local communities to empower them and see how we can support their development is also rather important in this conversation.
And of course, not [00:14:00] forgetting the governance conversations about how organizations needs to be more structured with the right leadership that can drive sustainable changes down the.
Sam Beere: Yeah,
and something I'd just like to kind of reiterate there. I think change starts at the top or within leadership and we need to to get to those leaders and to, if you like, educate or share more around how they can make change within their organizations individually. That really sets up the impact to change a working culture something that we found beneficial in the organization, is champions within the company and experts having employing specific experts to be able to come into the business and share more about sustainability or circularity, because it helps to translate the myth of some of the science that's out there. Shu Xin, you mentioned it earlier about the calculations around carbon and things like that, you know, there's so many of us, you know, myself I put on the list and say, you know, I'm not an expert in this field, but there are people who [00:15:00] are experts. And they are very much they're very passionate about getting involved with corporate and organizations to be able to help them. So I think it's about connecting into people as well and trying to work that way to, to bring people into the business. So.
Lim Shu Xin: back to the point on carbon footprinting, I think there's a misconception that many people would assume that it's rather complicated or overwhelming because of data and analysis. Factually, there are a lot of frameworks and tools out there that are readily available. And. Many people can slowly start to grasp the understanding of life cycle, life assessments, as well as like ISOs or numbers, like talking about manufacturing to upstream, downstream, all these are slowly forming together.
I don't think it's rocket science and many people out there are able to quantify this, like systematically, thanks to certain standards that People are putting out there and I think it's very important for us to also work [00:16:00] our way, knowing where we currently are at, which means that we are measuring our baseline emissions.
And from that point, we can slowly look towards our roadmap to our plans to decarbonization down the journey of our organization, which is something that is very meaningful and close to my heart. And yeah, and that drives my passion working in the organization on a day to day basis.
Sam Beere: Well, I think, you know, we can all agree that circular practices add value and invent beyond environmental impact. And you brought a couple of suggestions to the table around cost savings and smarter procurement and business opportunities as well around sort of a shared value initiative which support us as sort of sustainable requirements and goals.
I think that there's a huge benefit now for, to the brand as well. Sustainability is a huge brand building exercise if done correctly, but there are risks around that. And we're seeing those risks on the international stage as well. So I think as Shu Xin said, the [00:17:00] approach of measuring and setting those baselines and understanding what the baseline is so that then you can make responsible adjustments and reductions is the right way to go.
Andy Russell: I think it's key that the reporting of that carbon data doesn't become another greenwashing opportunity. I think it needs to be verified data. It needs to be, I think the companies that are producing that data really need to open that data up, allow External organizations to critically challenge that data to ensure that it's accurate because, you know, we're trying to fix a problem here that shouldn't become an opportunity that data needs to be the kind of the the base stone of of everything the accuracy of that is absolutely critical
Sam Beere: I couldn't agree with you more. I think that there are so many opportunities as you say, to take it down a negative pathway. People are trying to measure and accurately disclose information about their [00:18:00] businesses and practices. And then of course, there are always, as there are within everything within the business or life, there are opportunistic ways for people to take advantage.
So, the standardization of certification and processes of, if you like, rubber stamping those. Calculations for me is absolutely critical and it needs to be really tightened up. So we've kind of covered a little bit on an internal, like to move external now and talk a bit more about the key stakeholders within our industry.
So perhaps You guys can share a bit more about who, who are the key stakeholders within the industry we work in
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Andy Russell: within the industry. We work in really the guys that drive the specification of product that goes into the offices that we work in the architects and designers they're at the forefront of what's new. They're at the forefront of materials of sustainable materials, et cetera, et cetera.
I know that a lot of them have got a huge passion for reuse. And the industry is really driving that change in terms of the building envelope. I think the building envelope provides one opportunity. But I don't know. I think I read recently that a sustainably built building takes about 80 years to offset its carbon foot footprint.
From its, you know, initial building process. What can we hit regularly? Are the floors in that building? They're within our careers that we can make a difference. Every three years to the floors within the building. And there's a huge opportunity within those spaces [00:20:00] to impact carbon footprint companies driving to net zero.
That is a big opportunity for them to do that.
Lim Shu Xin: And I think the strategy with that is really on like the four R's, which starts with reuse, repurpose
Andy Russell: recycle,
Lim Shu Xin: recycle and redistribution. Yes. Right. So that is something that is what we do at. JEB group and SOS, which is trying to help clients to sustainably manage the office manager.
And I think it's very relevant for the fact that is something very tangible that you can see the item not going into the landfill just because it's no longer wanted, but the condition, the functions are all in good situation. So in this situation, we will try to donate the item to relevant NGOs so that they can put the item back into good use.
And ultimately, the whole exercise is to avoid a functional piece of furniture going into the landfill for the sake that it's no longer wanted.
Andy Russell: You know, [00:21:00] we're on the IFMA podcast, I I think the biggest stakeholder in all of this is the client and the facilities manager. You know, They are the teams that are on the ground able to drive that change up the chain within their business and down the chain into their supply chain.
I think, you Theyare the guys that are lovingly caring for these buildings and the product that's in them. I think they are critical to this change. And you know, the reuse of products starts with the correct procurement of the product in the first place design for reuse buy procure for reuse buy for reuse.
Always have that in your mind. Have the end of life of the product. In mind at the start of your journey with that product and then, you know, we're ultimately fit. We're forward planning the solution effectively.
Sam Beere: nail on the head there. And I think we can move that forward now to think about. So how do we engage and ensure that those [00:22:00] stakeholders are 1 informed, but also are taking those actions? How can we help to if you like, educate or share? What it is that we want to do within our business, but also across the industry, that there are opportunities to take these circular practices into the built environment at the construction stage or design plan stage construction stage.
And then thereafter, perhaps you've seen if you have you any thoughts on education.
Lim Shu Xin: Yeah, personally, I've seen that I think case studies or rather something that is pictorial or numerical is something that is more easily to convince stakeholders in the sense that they can potentially understand how the Project or a building can potentially be sustainably transformed in various ways.
Like, take the reuse, for example, facility managers really see that the items that are in their space were unwanted furniture beforehand. But now putting [00:23:00] into a new space, it's Brilliantly nice and functional to use, and they can slowly, through these small little pilot projects, adopt how it actually works, and taking that back is also on like Recycling the items or potentially seeing actual situations where these items are functionally used in their space.
Sam Beere: Fantastic. Yeah again, you're bringing up another point around IFMA and which is so relevant and the facilities manager. One thing that I saw time and time again in, in the environment, certainly in, in Hong Kong, in my time there, where you would have different departments and procurement teams.
Producing or procuring different items. So structure and standards within organizations, which often means that there's a different task chair for the, for different levels from different brands, and they're all procuring differently. And at the end of life, when we get to that point where we then have to redistribute or to recycle or to repurpose those [00:24:00] products then you end up with a huge pile of different product.
So it's a really interesting point to kind of, to touch on is that, you know, how can we also. Link in with those stakeholders to ensure that, you know, if the facilities manager was almost the front line through to the client to say, hey, we're seeing. We're seeing some procurement practices that against perhaps the overall company policy or all their processes.
I think that could be a good point as well. Andy, any, anything you wanted to share with us further on kind of collaborations, partnerships and how we connect to to clients and stakeholders to be able to help deliver more services to them.
Andy Russell: I think it's early adoption, really. I think it's, you know, the earlier we're involved in a process, the the better the outcome of the process it's not you know, cards on the table. It's not as fast as saying, Hey, let's go and buy a hundred chairs. The process if you want to reuse is one that there is a well trodden path now, and it's it is systematic in, in its approach in the same way that procuring new furniture [00:25:00] is so it's not something to be Frightened of as a process.
But yeah, I think engaging early, we can bring so many test cases over 300 projects where we've completely reused zero to landfill projects where we've exited thousands upon thousands of desks and chairs from buildings and nothing's gone to landfill. It's totally achievable. We just need to be.
Engaged on that journey and take that client on that journey, bring our learnings, our mistakes, our many rabbit holes that we've been down and bring those to the table and just collaborate. Be honest, be open, be transparent. At the end of the day, we're trying to make, we're trying to make.
Exceptionally important change that has one of the biggest impacts that we could possibly ever make as a population.
Sam Beere: touch on a really critical point there about the speed of [00:26:00] change and the process of change as well. I think also it can seem sometimes like such a huge item to break down. Like, you use the, the analogy around how do you eat an elephant and you take one bite at a time, that sort of approach.
It is that, and I would encourage that. And certainly we've seen that being successful with clients and partnerships where that we have on the ground is that you build momentum through almost sometimes taking the small wins on projects or an initiatives that you put into the organization.
It could be, you know, that we're just looking to save, you know, 10, 15, 20 items from a corporate, just, I think that's a really good start point, you know, to build momentum through participation. And through and from there, then you can start to see, okay, the wheels are turning and you can set some targets and roadmaps to make a larger impact, which is huge. Any other thoughts on stakeholders and engagement and how we might be able to impact or further encourage them to look at circularity guys.
Andy Russell: I mean, I personally believe that industry should if [00:27:00] possible in particular the big employers around the world, the multi continent employers, MNCs that are out there they have a chance to maybe lobby government, maybe try and help government along the journey of what's important to them to, you know, help industry make that change because, you know, without that, we're We're a generation, we're a group of people that have got up every day and bought.
You know, it's a capitalist mentality, and it's just how we've grown up. It's, you know, just what we know. But that mentality has drawn, monumental amounts of natural resources. So we need to think if we don't have those natural resources or if they're depleting and they're finite, what's our solution?
But all of those materials exist in circulation, they're in buildings, they're, you know, they're your stock, they're your future stock [00:28:00] within your estate. Think about that differently, think about the carbon impacts of that, think about the financial impacts of that. And then who can help you achieve it? You know, it feels more simple than I'm sure it is in reality.
And but yeah, it's critical.
Sam Beere: I think.
Lim Shu Xin: of government I think. For Hong Kong and Singapore per se has been rather good in terms of like, we see policy changes towards mandating sustainability reporting and with this coming along the way, more and more clients of ours are actually expecting us to get better at our impact reporting, which is something that is also very relevant to what we want, what we are doing for the fact that we want to make change.
The entire project very tangible and something very recordable so that they could potentially put it onto their own sustainability reporting for their own marketing for their own PR is. Something that needs this in that [00:29:00] all this ecosystem to slowly spread the word so that more and more people can see how this has this is done or this can be done so that more and more people can be part of this journey.
And similar to the. The statistic of like net zero goals, like potentially at the very beginning, there was not really a mandate, but because people see what other people are doing more and more people are doing it and the net zero goal if you put it into a graph is really like, exponential.
So hopefully this is a. Circular economy and how we view waste as a resource can be potentially be in that trend as well. And I hope that more and more people can adopt that kind of mentality, just like what we are doing and try to do on our day to day job.
Andy Russell: Well said.
Sam Beere: Well, yeah, exactly. Well done. I think that point's probably a nice time to sort of summarize and wrap up some of the discussion today. It's clear, obviously, the path to circular economy is without its challenges. We've touched on those points, but those challenges are [00:30:00] obviously opportunities in disguise.
And I think if we can shift our mindsets and embrace the value in what was once considered waste, we can obviously unlock new possibilities or new potential for sustainability in the built environment. Environment or industry furniture is Andy. You so brilliantly put furniture and fittings are often overlooked.
And then and essentially the end of life process isn't really appreciated. We need to become key players. We need to become stars at being able to deliver those products back into the loop and create New products from them or reuse them in a different way. So the road ahead requires obviously collaboration, innovation, lots of commitment and change.
We need to work with stakeholders. We need to shout loudly. We need to be clear that we need support from those MNCs, from governance, from finance, to ensure that. You know, everybody's part of the solution rather than that, rather than putting pressure on individual or smaller businesses. So, big thanks for joining us today on this journey towards [00:31:00] circularity.
Hopefully you've enjoyed the podcast and the episode. Don't forget to subscribe, share and leave us a review and feel free to reach out to any of us on our social media channels. And perhaps until next time remember your waste is your resource. And if you can shift your mindset and look at waste differently, perhaps those around you.
Might be also able to see the value.
Host: Thanks for tuning into the Connected FM podcast. If you enjoyed today's episode, please take a moment to rate and review the show because it really helps us reach more listeners just like you. And don't forget to hit the subscribe button so you never miss an episode. See you next time.