Ross Green, Shanil Patel, and Charles Ng discuss balancing manpower and technology in FM, covering training, cost management, client expectations, and adapting to post-COVID challenges and evolving regulations.
Today host Ross Green, Head of Business Development & Commercial Management at C&W Services, sits down with Shanil Patel, the Senior Director at Cushman & Wakefield, and Charles Ng, the Vice President of Innovation and Technology at Primech A&P. Together they explore the commercial aspects of facility management (FM), focusing on the balance between manpower and technology. The discussion covers training, managing costs and client expectations, highlighting post-COVID challenges, government regulations, and the shift towards outcome-based contracts.
[00:00:00] Shanil Patel: FM is primarily a manpower led business. As much as we would like to rely on technology, there is a cost for technology. But for me, manpower is real key. You know, when we look at facilities management professionals, FM's, building managers, technicians, et cetera, they all require training.
There's always a cost of living that needs to be managed. And expectations go up. And we have to, as FM companies, run with that and make sure that we are training people to get that right out there.
Host: Welcome to Connected FM, a podcast connecting you to the latest insights, tools, and resources to help you succeed in facility management. This podcast is brought to you by IFMA, the leading professional association for facility managers. If you're ready to grow your network and advance in your career, go to ifma.
org to get started. Today, hosted by. Ross Green, the Head of Business [00:01:00] Development and Commercial Management at C&W Services, sits down with Shanil Patel, the Senior Director at Cushman and Wakefield, and Charles Ng, the Vice President of Innovation and Technology at Primech A& P. Together, they explore the commercial aspects of facility management, focusing on the balance between manpower and technology.
The discussion covers training, managing costs, and client expectations, as well as highlighting post COVID challenges, government regulations, and more. And the shift towards outcome based contracts. Now, let's get into it.
Ross Green: Hello and welcome to this episode of the IFMA Connected series. Today we're going to deep dive into the commercial aspects of facility management to meet our expectations of our clients and customers. So firstly, I'd like to introduce the guests that we have on the panel today. So we have Shanil and Charles.
Welcome over to you Shanil.
Shanil Patel: Hi Ross. I'm [00:02:00] Shanil Patel. I'm a Senior Director at C& W Services, specifically on the IFM side. I've been in the FM industry for 25 years. 20 of those have been under a PPP or PFI style model, where we have to look at a critical balance between operations against contract expectations.
So service level agreements and KPIs where necessary. So we have to manage that also within the budget of the client and the expectations. Thank
Ross Green: you, Charles.
Charles: Hi everyone. I'm Charles from Primer AMP. I'm the VP of innovation and technology there. So before joining the FM industry, I was actually from the defense industry, applying technology and innovations in the context of ministry use cases.
So a few years ago, I actually joined private A& P as their VP of technology or innovation. And now my key focus area is actually in applying technology and innovation into the sector of FM [00:03:00] to look at how can we introduce these innovations to help improve productivity and reduce costs.
Ross Green: Thank you, Charles, and I'm Ross Green.
I'm head of business development at C&W Services, and I'm here to host and try to pick as much knowledge from our guests as possible in today's podcast. So I think to start off with, as we know with the Building and Construction Authority, BCA, they are aiming at trying to transform our integrated facility management sector.
And they're looking at value chain approach, where we're looking at both integrated facility management by linking our facility management services, but also an aggregated model where, where economies of scale coming by adding in additional services as and when required. And I think with that, with that vision, the BCA is trying to ensure that the industry is not labor intensive, but more technology enabled.
And then how do we get to that? So I think that moves into quite nicely into our [00:04:00] first question. And the first question is, how do you see customer expectations commercially influencing service delivery? So if I can give that to you first,
Shanil Patel: Shanil. Okay, thanks Ross. I think primarily cost savings is always the one key thing within FM.
As a specialist within the market, FM companies are expected to deliver the best cost solution. So for us, it's making sure that we do understand fully their contract and the client expectations. And we're managing that and measuring that in terms of the availability we've got. I think post COVID has put a lot of pressure on customer wallets.
And their budget expectations and just general business pressures, whether that be in the government space or that be in a corporate space. I think the utilization of office space as well has put significant significant pressure on the client. And that kind of pushes down onto the FM industry.
We have to get creative.
Ross Green: I think [00:05:00] that's, I think that's a good point. And that does lead over to you, Charles, from a hybrid model of our commercial spaces our office spaces, et cetera. How do you see that affecting your business
Charles: commercially? So Primate AMP, we are actually a cleaning service provider.
We see that the aftershocks of COVID actually have a profound impact to a lot of our customers and the way they operate. They are now a lot looking at you know, how to, I have a evolving workspace concept to support hybrid working model. As well as looking at, of course, cost savings because of the rising manpower costs and even material costs post COVID.
So we see that in a lot of the customers requirement in their contract, right? They are looking at really driving more of an outcome based contract versus the traditional hit count base and kind of, contract and they are now managing it in terms of outcome base and many of them are converting also taking the leap into the IFM space.
[00:06:00] Now they convert many so called consolidated, a lot of individual FM contracts into IFM contract. So in that perspective primary AMP, we are also trying to Make ourselves relevant and important to partner with our IFM partners such as C&W to continue to stay relevant in this field to deliver the service that to our client the best quality that we have.
Ross Green: And I think, I think that brings on the, which is pretty much the next question is how do we meet the expectations of our customers and our clients today? And if you could recommend a way or approach to facility management, what would you, what would you see that as the way to go? What would you recommend?
I think Shanil, would you like to go first?
Shanil Patel: Sure. I think one of the prime first points is looking at the contracting model. Okay. You've got fixed base contracts, you've got managing agent, you've got a principal pass through. I think what Charles mentioned about output expectations, I think that's fundamental.
I [00:07:00] think that a client does need to be on their side of the fence, fully aligned with what the output expectations are. There are companies out there, big organizations. that don't necessarily look fully at the contract that has been agreed. And as a result of that, there may be differences in understanding what the output actually is.
So when you look at contracting model, not everyone understands what has been priced. If you sit with a fixed price contract that is for three or nine years, there is an expectation or pricing that's been made. So therefore assumptions that have been made in that. So therefore, if you look forward. You do have to operate potentially and offer a hybrid model, which has a mix of, of the various different times.
If you've got a 90 year contract, it may be that at a certain point, the business on the client side veers off into a different angle. And as such, the fixed [00:08:00] price contract doesn't necessarily fit anymore. And as a result, to help them as professionals, we have to guide them. We have to help them. We have to make sure.
Budget wallet is managed properly because that's our profession. So there is a need to actually sometimes have a look at the differences, have a look in the beginning and where we feel that it's not right. Then we can actually go back and explain that. I think also the tendering process has got a lot to be desired.
Some client expectations are that you price a contract within four weeks. It's not actually fully advisable from our point of view. We need a little bit more time to to look at the best vendor to utilize, you know, in terms of making sure we've chosen the right technology that we have fully understood.
And, you know, that the information that's been passed to us, we've fully taken it on board and understand what will be the best outcome. And therefore the evaluation process and the clients have also needs to be looked at. It's not [00:09:00] just your traditional approach. It has to be looked at a little bit more.
So hopefully I've answered that question.
Ross Green: No, very good. I suppose from this perspective there is ensuring that you're aligned at the beginning of the contract. Ensure that you've got enough time to get that, so you get the best out of, out of your vendors or your contractors in the bidding process. And I suppose for you Charles is, if you have the ability and you've got Not only the ability to do integrated facility management services, but also single service elements around cleaning, for example.
So you slightly different, what would be your recommendation outside of the bidding process and the commerciality? What would your recommendation say if a client walked up to you today and said, how would you recommend we approach facility management with cleaning being the largest part of it?
Charles: Right. So I I agree with Sunil and Ruth herself, that the contracting process has to be adapted to support such a model going forward, right?
Engaging IFM [00:10:00] leads and cleaning contractors like ourselves up front in the whole tendering process is key. So probably shortlisted candidates can be invited early in the stage to defy the business case formation be very transparent about it. What are the ways that, you know, race will be measure, cost will be managed, how technology, what technology and how it can be implemented, the timeline you know, so all these thing has to be transparent because for it to really work, everybody have to come to the table and agree that this is what we're going to work on.
And so transparency is number one in the early phase. Now, I also think that to make this model work. Something akin to the Agile framework is very important. Coming from the software and IT background myself, right, Agile software development context can be applied into the context of FM, whereby the outcome is key, [00:11:00] and the so called the whole contract should support a way of being more flexible in terms of the utilization of resources, in terms of the cost, how do we scope.
portion of work and how do we measure outcome? How do we calibrate costs? So I believe such a contract will also help contractor vendor like ourselves to be able to perform accordingly and be rewarded accordingly to, to the contract. Because we must understand that KPI will change over time. Priority may change over time.
Cause will of manpower or material may change over time. So if we are all transparent about it, the contract support, the flexibility to effect such changes over time, then I think this whole process will work and be well oiled. Last but not least, I think such a FM model will require a longer term partnership.
So contract should be [00:12:00] longer because you have to put investment up front. So to see it to function, it takes time to realize it. So a trust based relationship between the service provider and the customer as well as a longer time frame will enable us to look at it. The outcome do we want?
Ross Green: So Shanil on to our next question.
How do you think the current legislation and regulations are impacting the delivery of facility or integrated facility management? And in Charles's case, cleaning services as well. So I suppose over to you. I
Shanil Patel: think one of the primary things is the talent pool within Singapore and neighboring countries.
FM is primarily a manpower led business. As much as we would like to rely on technology, there is a cost for technology, which I'm sure Charles will come on to. But for me, manpower is real key. You know, when we look at facilities management professionals, FM's, building managers, [00:13:00]technicians, et cetera, they all require training.
There's always a cost of living that needs to be managed. And expectations go up. And we have to, as FM companies, run with that and make sure that we are training people to get that right out there. You know, when you have workplace legislation that's put onto you, that has an impact on the business.
So therefore that pressure needs to be understood by all parties. That whilst we are driving for cost efficiencies, there are challenges that we have and hurdles that we have that we have to manage. In a competitive FM market, you know, everyone wants to price it right, but also to win that contract.
But then you do have these other pressures of talent, expectations on salaries. And generally people do want to work in a good place. They want to work for a good company, which, you know, at CW services, we do a lot in the market to actually make sure that we are a great place to [00:14:00] work. But each, all of these have a cost.
Client's expectation sometimes is that, you know, only need one or two people on site. But if that person's on annual leave, we have to backfill. That does come at a cost which is not necessarily understood by the client. So there are these legislative matters. There are regulations that we have to follow, but all of that still comes back down to service level agreements, expectations, output specs, etc.
Ross Green: Hmm. No, thanks for that. And I think that that leads nicely into probably the key challenges that you're facing, Charles, in terms of skilled labour shortage, or if you do get the labour, the cost that comes with it, especially with the legislation around PWM. So what's your approach on that?
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Charles: Yeah, so amidst these measures, right, legislation policies and regulations that is implemented, you know, we have to find a way to stay afloat.
And to stay competitive. So it's very tough, I would say ever since the PWM is being being implemented, right, old paths are being controlled, quota tasks are being controlled. We have seen that we actually were not able to fulfill some of our project because it's not easy to get local cleaners to replace some of the foreign cleaners, especially there are some sectors that we have.
It is almost impossible to find any locals who want to be in that sector. So we were forced to, you know, just stop the contract or give up on it. Of course, after negotiation with [00:16:00] our client, they also greatly let us go, knowing that we can't do it right. So we actually did do some reshuffling of our workforce.
And now we are seeing that there is this change of a workforce, a demographic. throughout our contracts, just to continue to be able to function well. Now going forward, we are planning also to re strategize on the key sector to focus on, especially those areas that technology can be applied.
So for primate, we have actually deployed close to a hundred cleaning robots, those floor cleaning robots into our projects in the hope to improve productivity.
But we see still, still see that right now there is still still a reliant on manpower because robots cannot replace human totally, right? So this is still a work in progress for us. And and not just that, recently we also deployed a robot, a toilet cleaning robot to one of our project in Temasek Poly.
And we are still doing the trials there over there [00:17:00] together with our cleaning team there. We hope to see that with all this technology we are able to continue to function well with all these new registrations that is coming to us very soon. Yes.
Ross Green: Yes. And I think, I think on the back of that, Charles, I think we need to work with our clients and our customers to understand that with outcome or performance driven contracts, we've got to move away from headcounting.
We've got to look at the technology enabling us to utilize our staff and our skilled operatives to be able to be relevant and as productive as possible. So I think that blend between technology and people manpower becomes very key. And I suppose this is the best bit, and I'll go back to you, Charles, on that.
What would you suggest would be the best use of technology to improve a service? And you touched on that previously, but how would you improved service delivery if you had the ability to bring in technology that you feel fits?
Charles: Okay. I don't think there's a one size [00:18:00] fits all solution to that. We really have to look at individual facilities and where are the gaps, what are the areas that the technology can come in to probably help to supplement or complement, right, the, the, the manpower resources that we have.
But I think. The key technologies will be those that is able to help with the issue of manpower, how to technology that can help to save costs, right? And yeah, and also we see that some of our clients are actually looking at sustainability goals. So those technology that is targeted in for somebody applying some IOT devices to support on demand kind of planning will be helpful.
And also the use of the all organic kind of chemicals, you know, for the cleaning projects is also something our clients are looking at to help them achieve their sustainability goals. So these are some of the energy I think will continue to stay green and useful.
Ross Green: Yeah. So a blend between [00:19:00] sustainability, not only from a technology point of view, but actually from an environmental point of view as well.
So same question to you, Shanil, how would technology enable you to provide a better service?
Shanil Patel: I think in terms of documentation and work management planned preventative maintenance, I think there's some great technology out there, some platforms out there that are usable. But there is a human factor.
There is the need to make sure that it's not a service delivery that's so dry that we just focus on the technology and that's it. You know, there is a, a relationship between the people that we put on site and the client, which blends into a kind of more of a nice workplace environment that we're trying to put as a mindset without people, you know, with this and fantastic cleaning companies out there, there's some fantastic cleaners out there and therefore there is that human element.
So putting robots in, putting technology in, using a pad and stuff like that, it [00:20:00] doesn't take away from the human aspect and the need for that training. Making sure that it is being utilized, come back and circling back to the talent piece and length of the contracts. There is that balancing act as well.
You can put technology in and it's getting better all the time, but there's a cost. There's a cost and therefore trying to manage that balance against the contract expectations and circles back to the the need to be a little bit more creative in terms of what we're proposing to clients.
Ross Green: Thank you for that. I think what that brings us to now is we've given recommendations to to our listeners What would be the outcome? Now in base in terms of well being of office space in terms of any asset space, really, and additionally, how would that work in terms of that service delivery? So what can the customers expect if they follow some of our recommendations?
Shanil Patel: Immediately, I would [00:21:00] say go back to the point that you made about well being. There is more and more of a focus and there needs to be more focus on the well being of staff, our client staff. in terms of making sure that they're enjoying that workplace. And we do help with that as well as the wellbeing of our own people, our own staff.
So looking at how that relationship works with the client is something that we want to drive. We want to drive FM to move into the future a little bit in terms of that mindset. With that mindset, we play a significant part in helping them. the wellbeing of the staff, the workplace experience, you know, I'm seeing it more on a corporate on a corporate side.
You know, we talk about government and stick still relevant. When you look at corporates, they want to bring the staff back into the office. So therefore ensuring that their staff are receiving the quality expectations. As much as the, [00:22:00] you know, the, the, the Gen Z's, et cetera, come back into the offices, their expectations are different.
So we, in that creative piece, we have to make sure that we're continuously looking at the wellbeing of the client. It's no more just about making sure that floors are clean, light bulbs are working, air conditioning is right. There needs to be a little bit more right from the experience of walking through the door in terms of them operating and then moving out.
And leaving and going back home so that that will being something that FM companies in particular, what we're trying to do is drive that, but it's about mindset piece and therefore talent does play a part of that, making sure that we are breeding that right talent. We're training that right talent.
We're getting their mindsets right in terms of what they're doing. So that they are able to translate that to the ground to the client.
Ross Green: So Charles, I suppose, is that the same? You've seen that same sort of approach with your contracts and the move towards a hybrid working place and well being? How do you [00:23:00] see that working with especially your cleaning division or services?
Charles: Yes, as I mentioned earlier we are seeing that there's more of this hybrid work space working mode that is going on. Now, for cleaning service providers like Primate, Yeah, if I can sum it up, we really want to introduce something like for example fresh wings, fresh winds to the facility that we are managing.
Mm-Hmm. ,
Charles: You know, letting the staff or, or, you know, customer, our customer feel that is a fresh environment every time we step into the office environment. Right? And to do that we have to continue to ensure the highest hygiene standard is being maintained at the workplace. So that whenever a staff come back to the office, they will feel excited about it.
And that will also improve their productivity and engagement with other staff. So, from that perspective, we wanted to use also a lot of IoT devices to support on demand kind of cleaning. Because now that The food fall will not [00:24:00] be as much as before. So how can we then optimise all this, all this cleaning and be very focused on the area that should be very thoroughly cleaned versus those areas that are hardly used.
So these are some of the thoughts that we have besides also going for a lot of green solutions to ensure sustainability.
Ross Green: And I suppose, Charles, with the green products and clean green solutions that you're bringing in, that's trying to meet the green dot gov goals off 10 10 30. And then I suppose if you could bring in those products, and as we all know, with green products, organic products, as you call them, comes with a cost and we're not seeing the volumes to bring those costs down.
How would you then approach a customer to say? Because I think everything's about an output or an outcome. And I think some, some of our, our occupiers and some of our landlords are only looking here and today. How would you recommend the clients look a little bit forward as to, this is a journey to get to the outcome or the output.
How would you [00:25:00] recommend the customers look at that from a sustainable point of view? Both on technology and green products, I suppose.
Charles: Well, You are right that it comes with a cost, but these days we are also seeing more and more companies setting sustainability goals Because that also translates into them actually becoming more profitable They are now, because a lot of their customers are also looking at them going green.
So the whole supply chain Have to be green, right? So, and that's why I see that more and more customers are actually towards that. In fact with the Delta cost, they are okay with it. So long they see that improve the, the hygiene, the health and support the environment. I think they are, they are supportive.
Generally they're open to it. They are open to each other.
Ross Green: And I suppose from, from your point of view, Shanil, I think The thing that we're seeing in C&W services, and I hope you could add or elaborate a little bit on this, is when we talk to our customers, it's usually the, [00:26:00] either the C suite occupiers or the C suite landlords who are talking about the forward journey.
How do, how do you see a facility management contractor? Playing part in that mindset that you were talking about when people on the ground are not on the same journey Or may not be on the same page as those c suite or the strategic direction
Shanil Patel: Okay I've approached it in two different ways I'll look at it from a government perspective and one from a corporate perspective.
It still boils down to procurement when you look at central procurement It's their role and their responsibility as well as the C suite on the client side to ensure that people based at the buildings understand fully what is coming and going to be delivered. If you take from a corporate side, a small office, it may be one person's responsibility to say to an external company, we need a proposal for IFM services.[00:27:00]
and we need to deliver them four weeks. But you know, we can work with the client and this is what I think that we need to drive. We can work with the client to develop their scope, to make sure that firstly the output and their expectations are being met. Wellness, sustainability, quality of service, being delivered, and give them an an idea then about how the contracting model can work with them and the type of talent that they want.
You know, they can. dictate all of these points, but us doing it as our bread and butter, we can advise and clients should take up that, that opportunity for us to develop that with them. That obviously depends on how they wish to procure that and the length of time that they've got. I think if you look at governments, both government are You know, all over some of these things.
They really do understand that, but then that needs to be pushed down into the people at the lower levels. You can look at the central government [00:28:00] procurement team that are well versed in looking at all of these items, and they know what's being delivered, but then that comes back down to the expectations on the ground, and that is the part that needs just to be developed.
So, but again, we can still help with if you like, Prepare, help them, help them being creative, give them ideas in terms of how they can move forward. You know, as part of a panel, we get a, you know, there could be a few FM companies getting involved in kind of helping. And then it's about the government taking that away, then coming back and say, okay, we've got your points.
We want to take that in. So I think there needs to be a little bit more discussion. There needs to be a little bit more openness in this new era of trying to drive cost efficiency. There are overheads on the client's side, which could help drive that efficiency, in terms of saying, actually, we may have too many people on the client's side, within their organization, and that is a cost.
That is a hidden cost, but it's still a cost. So [00:29:00] therefore, we can significantly help them, advise them, in terms of which way we can move forward.
Ross Green: Thank you. I think we've given our listeners a lot to think about in a very short space of time. And I suppose as we conclude in this podcast, I'd like our listeners to possibly take away two items that they should consider when looking to go in their journey with facility management.
So Shanil, what would you say would be your two takeaways you'd like to give to the listeners?
Shanil Patel: I think first and foremost our clients need to understand Exactly what they're looking for. What are they driving? What is the, their key aims and objectives, you know, cost savings got that. That's absolutely expected, but in terms of the output, the quality output, they need to be clear on that.
So therefore scope needs to be clear. Expectations need to be clear, whether it's output input based, what they're trying to drive it in terms of incentive, we need to move away [00:30:00] from that penalty Peace and do more incentive based because that's what does motivate people to actually push forward and give it their all.
So that comes back down to this piece on workplace experience expectations. So that's primarily number one. I think number two is when you look at the tendering process, procurement process, you know, depending on the length of time of that contract, the, the vendors need more time to think about that. As to what is the best solution when you've got an integrated platform, you can have seven or eight different companies, which you as an integrator of trying to make sure you've given the best solution for the best price.
And that needs time. You might need a lot more dialogue between the client asking questions, clarifying questions before you can come back completely. With the solution where you can say how not that is the best deal that is the best output that you're going to get. And these are the reasons why [00:31:00] so therefore, you know, just summarizing that, I think one is be very clear from scope, documentation, expectations, et cetera, right up front and then manage that in terms of how long it's going to take the vendors, the contracting world, the, the, the professionals in this area, the FM players to come back with the best proposal.
So I think. And if you PPP style contract, 25 year deal, that could take a year and a half, two years to actually put together. So therefore, if you look at 10 year contract, why wouldn't you allow a little bit more time? So it does require a little bit more early thinking, but therefore you will get the best out of it at the end of that.
And you can also manage your pocket, your wallet on the client side a lot better.
Ross Green: Thanks. Thank you so much. Charles, what would your two takeaways be for our listeners?
Charles: Number one, I think that it does not have to be a winner, loser approach. We should, customer and service [00:32:00] provider, we should come together to see a win win strategy, to agree on how to achieve a win win outcome, right?
So that is the number one thing. And to do that, I believe that it's really, as I mentioned earlier on it's about having that transparency upfront. , right. To agree on the, the KPIs as well as how we manage calls together. So that is the first takeaway.
Ross Green: Mm-Hmm. .
Charles: The second one I think is about technology is not answer to everything.
It cannot solve all the issues that we have today. And technology has come with an investment cost and it take times to see real results. It cannot totally replace human so there is still a need for manpower and it will take time to transit into a to see the outcome. So I think given time we should be able to see how technology can play a big part in improving the facility management behavior.
Ross Green: Yeah, very good point. And I think, yeah, in conclusion, I think what we [00:33:00] really need to look at, and I think you've nailed that quite nicely Charles, was how do we do this in a collaborative approach? And what does collaboration mean to, to us? What does it mean to our clients, to our customers, and the end users?
And I think we need to be on the same page when you talk about collaboration. I would like to thank Shanil and Charles, thank you very much for coming in and sharing your knowledge today.
I've been Ross Green from C&W services. This is part of the IFMA connected FM series, and we hope you enjoyed it. Thank you very much.
Host: Thanks for tuning into the Connected FM podcast. If you enjoyed today's episode, please take a moment to rate and review the show because it really helps us reach more listeners just like you. And don't forget to hit the subscribe button so you never miss an episode. See you next time.