Join us for another edition of the IFMA Foundation's new series, "Rework: The Sustainable Development Chronicles". In today's episode, Jessica Bantom, author of Designing for Identity: How to Design Authentically for a Diverse World, speaks with host Dave Karpook about how Diversity, Equity, Inclusion and Belonging can inform work and the workplace. Many of the United Nations Sustainable Development Goals, including goal 10 – Reduced Inequality; goal 5 – Gender Equality; and goal 16 – Peace, Justice and Strong Institutions, come into play in a discussion that ranges from the white-collar workplace to decent work in all areas of the globe.
Join us for another edition of the IFMA Foundation's new series, "Rework: The Sustainable Development Chronicles". In today's episode, Jessica Bantom, author of Designing for Identity: How to Design Authentically for a Diverse World, speaks with host Dave Karpook about how Diversity, Equity, Inclusion and Belonging can inform work and the workplace. Many of the United Nations Sustainable Development Goals, including goal 10 – Reduced Inequality; goal 5 – Gender Equality; and goal 16 – Peace, Justice and Strong Institutions, come into play in a discussion that ranges from the white-collar workplace to decent work in all areas of the globe.
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[00:00:00]
Dave: Well, hello and welcome again to our podcast series, Rework the Sustainable Development Chronicles. In each episode of this podcast series, we're gonna be focusing on one or more of the United Nations sustainable development goals and their impact on the profession of facility management. Today we'll be looking at a number of goals, a number of SDGs, including Goal 10, reduced inequalities, goal five, gender.
Goal 16, peace, justice, and strong institutions and more. My guest today is Jessica Bantham, a workplace strategist and diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging consultant whose new book is called Design for Identity, how to Design Authentically for a Diverse World. Welcome, Jessica.
Jessica: I'm glad to be here.
Dave: Well, let's go right down to business. When I first heard you speak, which was, just about a month or so ago, one of the things that really struck me most [00:01:00] strongly was your position that inclusion means not just doing what you believe is the right thing, but including the intended beneficiaries in your actions, in the discussion.
Among other things, you talked about this as beneficial in preventing unintended consequences. Can you talk more about the importance of the conversation around inclusion?
Jessica: Sure, it's interesting because I am specifically articulating, identifying myself as a diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging practitioner because, I see belonging as the other side of inclusion.
A lot of what we do to be inclusive is based on our perception of what inclusion looks like, and it's not always informed by or even validated by the people we're trying to include. So that is where, to me, the importance of actual conversation comes into play. Why it's important to actually reach out to the people that you are intending [00:02:00] to include and asking.
What makes you feel included? what would signify to you that you have a place here and how can we make that happen? There is a lot of intention around inclusion, and I'm glad it's becoming more of a conversation, but inclusion can also become very performative if it's not informed by the people that you are attempting to include.
And by focusing on belonging, that is about actually. You know, like I said, kind of validating how effective your inclusive behaviors and practices are.
Dave: Yeah, I really like that addition of the word. Belonging and I appreciate your explanation about how that's kind of the proof of the pudding that your DEI efforts are actually benefiting the people that you're trying to benefit. Because, I think we've all heard of and know of. Good intentions that went spectacularly wrong. So can you tell me a little bit [00:03:00] more, about how you came to focus your work on these issues of diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging?
Jessica: So I have been an interior design consultant for over 15 years now, and it was interesting to me to observe in my d e I lane and in the d e I work I've been doing, the last several years, the response among the design industry and many industries, especially in the summer of 2020 following the murder of George Floyd.
When there. Big awakening and this call for social justice and a lot of statements were made by businesses, a lot of, proclamations about we stand with everyone, and I was curious to see what was going to happen after that. After the statements were made, after these promises were made, all of these pledges, what was really going to be different and specifically in the context of design.
I wasn't seeing anything different in terms of the day-to-day practices, [00:04:00] how we engage with each other as designers, how we engage with customers, and that really stood out to me as problematic area because. I've been involved and engaged in several industries as a consultant over the past 20 years.
But in design it seemed really important to me for DEI to stick because as designers we designed for everybody. And I looked around at the makeup of our industry and there is so little diversity. I was really wondering how are we going. Make any kind of impactful change when there's not a representation that mirrors the realities of the world and society in the actual profession.
And I was looking to see what, if any, design practices in particular were going to change as a result of all of these statements. And this surge in interest around racial justice and social justice. In the accents of that, I [00:05:00] wanted to create space for a conversation to really dive into why haven't we done anything and what, more importantly, what could we do?
Yeah. Creating space for a conversation that kind of encapsulates everything I think that you're trying to do both in a physical design sense and in, you know, designs that. Good behavior, fair behavior or equitable behavior. Right, exactly. and I really looked at the design process and even from the time I was a design student, I realized there was a gap when it came to identity that wasn't something that we deliberately addressed with our customers.
It wasn't something that we deliberately incorporated into any of our designs or even float. As a concept to possibly integrate in an intentional way in every design project because like I said, we're ultimately designing for a diverse. Audience, a diverse world. So that was where I really started thinking about, What questions do we need to ask in the design [00:06:00] process? Number one, with customers and a number two, among ourselves and our colleagues and our design teams to make sure that we are finding out what is meaningful to our customers that we're creating for. And to really figure out how we then translate that into a design without being performative, without just doing it through our narrow lens as designers.
And, oh, this is my interpretation of your identity, as opposed to, please tell me what, what is important and valuable to you. I will create a solution, but then I'll also come back to you and validate whether. That is still achieving what you wanted to achieve. that's great. And that leads right into the next topic I wanted to address with you, which is about that performative exercise.
Dave: Many organizations have strongly worded written policy statements that prohibit discrimination in the workplace policies that. Align with [00:07:00] sustainable development goals like number five and number 10, but are these policy statements doing what they're intended to do? Are they enough? and it sounds like you have some strong ideas about other steps that really need to be taken to ensure that the goals of DEI are being addressed adequately.
Jessica: Definitely. I would say statements alone are never enough. I mean, you think of just human nature in general. There's rules everywhere. How well do we all abide by those? But what really tells us that something is important is how consistently those rules are enforced and do we see them being actively recognized on a day-to-day basis, is their accountability to those rules.
And it's the same kind of thing when it comes to DEI when it comes to the corporate statements, when it comes to rules and regulations, it's never enough just to say that something is important and there needs to be [00:08:00] modeling of behaviors that backs that up. And that's often what's missing. I, and I wouldn't say it's always missing purely because people don't care.
I think that there's a lot of good intention around DEI, but people don't know what it means, what it looks like to show up in a way that says I truly value diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging. I think there's a gap there that needs to be addressed once again through dialogue and through learning to getting used to having these conversations so that we can see.
What that really means, and I think it's especially important for leaders because they are usually pointed to as the example in organizations. definitions of words seem to play a major role in clarification, but also maybe in some confusion about objectives in this area.
When I was in my earlier days in the workplace, keywords were things like non-discrimination and equal opportunity. But now, [00:09:00] Diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging have become the watchwords for what we are trying to achieve in the workplace. And, I think with all of these terms, there is continues to be a danger of tokenism of, okay, we've done this, we've met the goal, we've done that, we've met the goal, and.
How do we get beyond that and what is the conversation that takes place to get beyond just ticking the boxes of performative compliance? Yes. I think some of those terms that started at the beginning of these efforts, you know, affirmative action, equal opportunity, a lot of them were tied to compliance.
So it was all about, from a legal standpoint, tell me what I can and cannot do. What will I get? Slap on the risk board and what's. And yes, those things had to be in place because in the absence of them, obviously nothing was enforced and there was no, no signal that the intention and the words actually meant anything.
And over time, I think we've [00:10:00] evolved, and this is actually a way that I expressed DEI maturity, is that compliance is bare. You to say that we have people in HR who can take care of that, or an understanding of what's legal and what's not. That's looking at this from a purely compliance per perspective, which is relevant, which is also necessary.
But I think as we, we've seen the concepts and the terms evolve, there's also been an evolution in terms of what's. What are the expected behaviors around diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging? So, even as it started off with this transition to D and I, diversity and inclusion, that was kind of bridging from, okay, we have quotas to, okay, we're now we're going to once again say that we're including people, we don't just want you in the doors, we want to keep you here.
But that's, once again, that's not the full picture because that's, we're gonna do what we think we need to do to keep you here. And then you [00:11:00] roll in equity. So DEI became the thing, as I'm looking at this in just real broad terms and how the terminology evolved. Then it became diversity, equity, and inclusion.
Because now you had the diversity, or you were working on improving the diversity. You were making efforts to be inclusive, but what was happening if the people stayed there? Were they having the same experience if they were being invited to? And that's where equity came into play. And now it's also continuing to evolve because we're looking at like the B for belonging.
We're looking at the J for justice. Some organizations focus on justice upfront and Jedi is their focus. Justice, equity, diversity and inclusion. And in some organizations, accessibility is also brought into an, into play under this larger umbrella. And I think what that signifies to me is that we are moving away from compliance to really getting to the behaviors and understanding.
DEI is a set of values. [00:12:00] It's not just a set of policies and you're adopting these as values, then you need to demonstrate that they are important. It's just like any other corporate value. If you say integrity is important, you say teamwork is important. There are certain behaviors and certain standards that people are expected to live up to, to show that they value those things as.
It's the same thing for d e I and I think that transition is starting to happen. We're moving. I think we're getting to a point where there's more of a, an understanding of what this means, and it's becoming more about action and proactive being proactive as opposed to this original place where we started where it was all about.
Dave: So that kind of leads very directly to my next question, which is about United Nations sustainable development goals, 16 peace, justice, and strong institutions. That's one for which the UN specifically talks about inclusion, inclusivity. The full [00:13:00] statement of that goal is, To promote peaceful and inclusive societies for sustainable development, provide access to justice for all, and build effective, accountable, and inclusive institutions at all levels.
I'm intrigued by that at all levels. Part of the statement, and I wanna ask you, how does your work as a designer, as a consultant, as a strategist, contribute to the at all levels? Goal for inclusivity?
Jessica: Yeah, I, well, for me, as a designer and as part of the philosophies that I share and design for identity, and even looking at it, I'll say from an organizational standpoint, so looking at it in terms of a design firm, part of the effort to be inclusive and to adopt what I call this design for identity blueprint and engage, starting to engage in conversations means that there has to be value placed on.
Hearing from people across an organization to get insights [00:14:00] into their perspectives and their experiences. So, you know, just for us to broaden our minds to think about the lived experience that people have and how valuable that can be in conversations with clients and in the design process in general.
And once again, being intentional and creating space for a conversation and creating. Place where people feel safe to share from their own experience so that knowledge can then be translated into a design. And it can also be brought into the conversation with customers who are going to be from diverse backgrounds themselves.
If they walk into a room and they see people who look like them, or they get to a conversation and realize that there are people who identify in similar ways that they do, there's gonna be a whole different conversation and a whole different exchange of information. And. Then there's going to be, if they came in and we're talking to someone that they couldn't relate to in any meaningful way, and that change, that [00:15:00] exchange of that really meaningful information and that, those things that usually go unsaid or unacknowledged, those are the game changers when it comes to a final product and actually creating something that honors.
Dave: So education SDG four and its relation to DEI have become something of a political hot topic lately. What are your thoughts? I've been, frankly very surprised that DEI is seen as something of a threat in some quarters. But what are your thoughts on the, on these efforts to channel the conversation in the educational arena?
Jessica: I think what we're seeing there is a fear-based reaction to losing control of the narrative. If you look at history, it's always going to be told by whoever has the power to tell the story. And if you have the power to tell the story, you're going to tell the story where you are presented in the best light possible.
And, any countering views, like, you know, [00:16:00] we edit those out. And what's happening is that the, all of the edited out. Are being told, and they're, there's, they're be becoming louder. And I think what we're seeing is once again, like I said, a fear-based reaction. To get rid of that stuff, we need to maintain control.
We need to, so we can main, we can maintain this narrative that has kept this power structure in place that has kept privileged as it exists, especially in America, in its place. And to me it's almost, it seems. Almost pointless in the grand scheme of things. But when you look at the fact that we are in the age of data, we are in the age of information.
Even if you try to keep it out of schools, it doesn't mean it can't be accessed elsewhere. So to me, this such a over the top kind of reaction is just. Like panic on display to me. And it's ultimately not [00:17:00] keeping the information, keeping people from getting the information anyway. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely.
Dave: Being told that something is forbidden, goes way back to the Bible.
Jessica: Right, right. And it makes it seem more interesting, like, oh, well what am I missing now? You know, SDG eight focuses on decent. That's an interesting term. I think, we can understand this to mean an end of forced labor to slavery, to child labor, to human trafficking, and I think we can agree on the need to eliminate those kinds of abusive practices.
But decent work, it occurs to me, may mean different things in different contexts to. Audiences. and I wonder, do you have any thoughts about how the concept of decent work might be viewed through a positive inspirational lens and how we might, focus on that for whoever we wanna put the focus on.[00:18:00]
Yeah, and it's interesting. It is good, I guess to focus on the positive because when I hear, when I just hear the term decent work, I'm, my first question is decent to who and, but all of the things that you mention, of course, the main objectives of eradicating things like human trafficking and slavery and things like automatically those are high priority.
And obviously they're very ex, extremely important. And I think that in addition to. Focusing on those things, which are just so egregious. Decent work can take on different contexts depending where you are and what you do. If you look at it in the context of, I think, what typical American work looks like and the typical, especially what we've defined as work since the pandemic.
It's largely been office work is what we think of. It's not the only perspective, obviously, but it is one of the main ones. And I think that we could look at decent work in that regard in terms of creating places and spaces where at a bare [00:19:00] minimum, people feel seen, valued, heard, and cared for, that there is no threat to their safety, to their security, to their ability to navigate a space, their ability to thrive in a space like those seem.
Pretty basic expectations anyone should have from any type of work environment, and that also conveys to any type of other space where people work that there should be that. Expectation once again, bare minimum expectation of those things. I think if we want to go beyond that, to get above decent, that also means going above and beyond in terms of creating inclusive environment, creating those spaces where people are not only seen, but they're valued and that their perspectives are actually sought and that their needs are welcome.
to be vocalized and communicated and that they will be respected and in spaces where you don't call things an accommodation as if we're doing you a favor. It is a basic, whatever it is, a practice, a [00:20:00] tool, a environment that is created for anybody to succeed regardless of identity. And I think that if we are expected to produce in work environments, that we should be supported to thrive in them as.
Dave: one of the points you brought up just now is our perspective in sort of, United States white collar, middle class, upper middle class, context and, the SDG three, which focuses on ensuring healthy lives and promoting wellbeing. In quotes for all at all ages. I certainly, as I think you do, live and work in an environment where health and wellbeing tends to be applied to those office environments that you talked about, where, to be honest, Healthy workplace is pretty easily understood.
But when we look at that situation globally and even across all sectors in this country, the United States continuing to focus [00:21:00] on work, we have to consider mining and agriculture and forestry and other domains where the goal might seem more elusive, So my question to you is, how can or can we use our privileged status to promote positive outcomes globally?
Jessica: How do we include other cultures, other environments in that conversation about healthy lives and healthy work? I think it is literally a matter of, once again, creating space for a dialogue and asking people what is important to them. what will make you feel cared? If you are, you mentioned the environments, maybe it's mining where it's, or it's something where there are considerable risks or dangers or.
Where it's not just, comfy seat at a desk to really talk to the people and ask them what their concerns are. I think in a lot of businesses, business instances, d e I and others, we often go right to data. We go right to [00:22:00] numbers. We go right to statistics. When the people are right in front of us, we go to benchmarking.
We go to, well, what's everybody else? You can't care about everybody else. the people that you work with, the people, your organization, that you have some kind of, loyalty to, some kind of responsibility for. Those are the ones that you should be concerned about. And a lot of times it like, to me, that's the most basic thing to do is to ask the people.
It's amazing how that the capability to ask questions is often forgotten in the, oh, no. We, we've gotta have a policy about this. We've gotta, figure it out.
Dave: I wanna thank you so much for your insights, Jessica. I'm really looking forward to reading your book and I'm sure anyone who has heard your words today, your conversations will also be interested. Thank you so much for being part of this series.
Jessica: Thank you. I'm glad to have participated today and I really look forward to hearing more from, this [00:23:00] conversation.