In today's episode, Dean Stanberry, Immediate Past Chair of IFMA's Global Board of Directors, engages in a compelling discussion with Dr. Amy Dufrane, CEO of the Human Resources Certification Institute (HRCI). Together, they discuss IFMA's strategic partnership with HRCI, exploring the link between Facility Management (FM) and Human Resources (HR) and the critical role of their collaboration in organizational efficiency. They also address the challenges of labor shortages, the evolution of professional training, and innovative strategies for workforce development.
In today's episode, Dean Stanberry, Immediate Past Chair of IFMA's Global Board of Directors, engages in a compelling discussion with Dr. Amy Dufrane, CEO of the Human Resources Certification Institute (HRCI). Together, they discuss IFMA's strategic partnership with HRCI, exploring the link between Facility Management (FM) and Human Resources (HR) and the critical role of their collaboration in organizational efficiency. They also address the challenges of labor shortages, the evolution of professional training, and innovative strategies for workforce development.
Resources Mentioned:
Amy Dufrane: [00:00:00] This is where this synergy has to be hand and glove between HR and FM. You know, in, in my case, I was responsible for our facilities and that reported in to me. So I was really digging in deep to look at how do we, how can we work better together, but I think now, more so than ever I'm talking to more and more organizations that are reconfiguring their physical space because how they have had it configured in the past is not conducive to the work that employees are saying, we have a different kind of way that we're working now and a different way that we're collaborating with each other. So I think that there's this way for facility managers to really help HR to tackle some of these problems and for HR to do the same. Right? I mean, to lean in and to help
Host: Welcome to Connected FM. A podcast connecting you to the latest insights, tools, and resources to help you [00:01:00] succeed in facility management. This podcast is brought to you by Ithma, the leading professional association for facility managers. If you're ready to grow your network and advance in your career, go to IFMA. org to get started. In today's episode, Dean Stanberry, immediate past chair of IFMA's Global Board of Directors, engages in a compelling discussion with Dr. Amy Dufrane, CEO of the Human Resources Certification Institute, HRCI. Together, they discuss IFMA's strategic partnership with HRCI, exploring the link between facility management and human resources, as well as the critical role of their collaboration and organizational efficiency.
They also address the challenges of labor shortages, the evolution of personal training, and innovative strategies for workforce development. Now let's get into it.
Dean Stanberry: Hi, this is Dean Stanberry, Immediate Past Chair of IFMA's Global Board of Directors, and this is the Connected FM podcast. Today, we're joined by Amy Dufrane, CEO of the HRCI, or Human Resources Certification Institute. IFMA has [00:02:00] a number of strategic partnerships we've entered into, and this is one of them.
So we're here to talk a little bit about ways that FM and HR can So HRCI has been around since 1973. They have over 500,000 people certified in 150 countries. And Dr. Amy Dufrane has her PhD in education and has worked in a lot of different scenarios and has been with HRCI since 2011.
So, Amy, why don't you tell us a little bit more about HRCI yourself and what interested the institute in getting together with IFMA?
Amy Dufrane: Dean, it's great to be here with you today. And, you know, I'm really excited about our partnership with IFMA and I think it became really important when you reached out and said, gosh, it'd be great for us to have some kind of a partnership and forge something together, because in my background.
I worked [00:03:00] for an organization in which I was responsible for the organization's facility management process. We had tenants, we had buildings, we had all sorts of stuff. So, to me, this seems like a natural collaboration to talk about ways that that we can each facility managers and human resources can work collaboratively together to.
Really rise and help our organizations be more efficient and effective. I, of course, answered your 2nd question 1st, because that's what really excites me about. This is to have that partnership together. But at HRCI, we've been, as you said, doing this for 50 years. We're certifying body for 4 decades and over the past year, we've transitioned into more learning opportunities for HR and people managers.
So we've got learning courses, ranging the gamut of things that human resources are dealing with and are you know, lucky enough to be a [00:04:00] part of within the organization. So we have lots of learning opportunities and we have webinars and community building resources and tools and a really strong community of HR professionals around the world who are really interested in elevating their own capacity and capability as HR professionals. So I'm glad to be a part of the organization and really excited about this conversation today, because I think that it's natural that we talk about some of these things that, that are overlapping and ways that we can work even better together.
From, HR perspective.
Dean Stanberry: And what drew you into HRCI?
Amy Dufrane: Oh, my gosh. Well, so, naturally I was certified before I became an employee of HRCI. I got my SPHR and was very passionate about how to [00:05:00] continue to elevate myself as an HR professional, how to make sure that I was challenging myself. And like I tell people, I'm a learning junkie.
I love to learn and so this was the perfect place for me to work with the profession and continuing to elevate their game as professionals. I started in HR when it was very transactional. I was reflecting back on this. I had 6 of my colleagues in HR, and we all shared 1 computer when I started in HR.
So we were fighting it out with, you know, who's going to get the computer today? And how can we make things work more efficiently and effectively? Thank goodness that job went away. Because no one wanted to do what I was doing when I started in my career. Over 30 years ago, I think HR is such a, an amazing place to be.
This is where you can really impact the business. And the most important [00:06:00] resource of every company is it's human capital. That's what makes us different. That's what makes us unique as companies. And I think that this is how we can really you know, change the face of the organizations that we work in.
And I want to be a part of that and have been and really have enjoyed my journey at HRCI and in HR.
Dean Stanberry: Absolutely. Just to add to that a little bit, so, you know, those that know me know that I've had two careers. I started out in it and then took that right turn into real estate facilities. But, you know, once in real estate facilities, I kept hearing people say we need it and HR and, real estate FM to work together.
We're all support organizations, mostly we're not the revenue generating parts of the business. We were there to support those parts of the business. And we've never really found that formula, I guess on, how should we make that work? [00:07:00] And some of it's organizational, you know, each group reports to different parts of the organizations with different priorities.
But I, more and more, I see sort of a light at the end of the tunnel that says, we are starting to bring these functions together because there, there is some overlap. There's some synergies that, that we must take advantage of. So, with that, why don't we go ahead and dive into some of the questions that we'd kind of, posed here.
So, the 1st one, is really an issue for the FM and real estate industry. So FM and skilled trades are experiencing this generational shortage in young people joining these professions. While the boomers are retiring and that includes me you know, that, that is accelerating, but from HRCI perspective, how does this compare with other industries?
Are we alone in this or are we among friends that are experiencing the same things?
Amy Dufrane: [00:08:00] I think we're all in this together. This is such an unprecedented time that we're experiencing from a labor shortage perspective. According to some of the work by the conference board, we need an additional four and a half million people entering in the workplace every year, and we don't have enough people. We don't have enough of those folks that are coming in to fill the gaps of workers that we need and the jobs that we need. So naturally, there's this discussion around AI. Well, is that going to replace workers?
And I think it will help. With some of the shortage, but I think we've got to think more creatively about how do we fill some of these positions? What is it that we need to do to really look deeply at the labor shortages that are happening and it's not just in the U. S. it's across the world.
Although there are some countries that are doing better at [00:09:00] filling you know, that have the. Capacity from a people perspective, they just don't have the jobs, like India being 1 of them. That's 1 of the countries that we're seeing you know, a plethora of people and not enough jobs. So how do we kind of marry those 2 things together with, that sort of labor shortage perspective and combining that with the need for jobs to be filled.
So I think there's some creative thinking that we've got to do across every 1 of our you know, On every position, every industry, we've got to think really creatively about how do we pull people in to our work organizations so that we can be productive and 4. 5M.
That's a lot of people to pull in every year. And then you see, sort of, there's been a lot of data around the snake of sort of what our demography looks like, even from an age perspective. And [00:10:00] there is a big, dearth coming from just not enough people, and then you look at generation alpha, as they call themselves.
So this is the generation that are in elementary, middle, high school right now, who will be the workers of tomorrow. And there's just not, there's not enough people. We have a birth shortage in the US and in other countries around the world. So we're, this is a longer term issue that we're seeing hit every industry and many countries across the planet for, the number of jobs that we have, and the number of workers that we need to fill them. So this is a a challenge that we've got. And I think there's been a lot of research on some of the strategies that we can take. You know, from a more economy perspective from the US economy perspective to sort of think creatively and think a little bit differently, but we've got some workers who are [00:11:00] able bodied workers who are on the sidelines right now. So how do we creatively think about pulling them in from reskilling them to upskilling them. To giving them some different options for child care and elder care, and some of those things that are really taking people and sidelining them out of the workforce and they want to be in the workforce, but just can't be because of pressures that are happening for themselves. So this is a, you know, a problem that we've got, but there's, you know, we've got to be thinking really creatively about.
Dean Stanberry: Yeah. And just to delve into the skilled aspect of it. So we talk about skilled trades.
These are typically positions that maybe went through an apprenticeship program or something, but certainly did not have an accredited degree associated with
it.
And I'm going back in history now. So, so my experiences in [00:12:00] either hiring or being hired, every application required, you know, degree required.
Now, you could have a degree in art history, which had absolutely nothing to do with the position you were being hired in, but that was a sort of mandatory. That's right. So how are we looking at the skills and again, accredited degrees going forward? Where do we see that there's a, an absolute need?
And where is there maybe a little more latitude these days?
Amy Dufrane: Yeah, you know what? I think that companies are really thinking creatively about talent and about hiring. And is that degree really essential for this job? Or can we skill people who are coming into our organizations? Can we give them? On the job training, can we give them skills and capabilities so that they can do the jobs that are necessary?
So I think hospitals, you know, essential workers, they're really doing some creative thinking about hiring nurses and how are we pulling [00:13:00] people into the hospital system and training them, even though they don't have a degree, they will eventually, but sort of creating a learning path for the For example, for nurses along this journey, so that they're gaining real skills, real world skills and applying them in real time.
And we'll eventually get a degree, get that licensure, get that sort of credential that they need behind their names in order to ensure that they're skills and competencies are valid and are what a nurse should know in order to get the job done. So I think that's where organizations are really they're questioning, as you just said, Dean, that is, is this really is a degree really important for this job?
And I think that's kind of woven in with the cost of higher education Which in some cases, you know, people are saying, I don't want to leave [00:14:00] higher ed and have the debt that I have. So I'd rather, be in a program that I can start contributing immediately and gain those skills and expertise.
And maybe at some point in the path, get a degree if I find that I want to do that. But I think there are jobs, that need to have Degrees. I think organizations are finding, gosh, we've, we need workers. More quickly, then people are able to finish a degree program and so we can train them and but I think the caution of that from an employee perspective is that you've got to then manage your own professional development.
In a much more focused way than people used to have to do this, because you want to make sure that the skills that you're getting and what the company is training you for are [00:15:00] not going to be just for that organization, but will give you that ability to move up or to not. Lose your job because your company isn't focused on reskilling you.
So I think there's sort of a push and a pull. There's the push from the company perspective or a poll pull you in. And then, employees are going to have to continue to push in getting their own professional development and upscaling themselves and making sure that they're sharp with what's happening in the workforce. In whatever, industry they're in.
Dean Stanberry: It seems like it's a little bit of a return to what I would say occurred in the sixties and seventies. Large corporations used to do a lot more internal training. That's right. And of course people were there, you know, spent a lot of years there. That one aspect has changed considerably, but we're now seeing companies sort of acknowledging the fact that they're going to have to take some responsibility for providing some [00:16:00] of that knowledge in order to get the people you know, what I considered when I got hired into the phone company years ago was they were looking for an aptitude, not necessarily a specific skill set. Did you have the aptitude for this position? Right. And I think my, one of my favorite jokes is the CEO and the CFO having a conversation and the CFO going, what if we train all these people and they leave?
And the CEO just turns to him and says, what if we don't train them and they stay.
Amy Dufrane: Right, right, right, right.
Dean Stanberry: So, I think there's that's what you're talking about. That's right. That's right. That push pull come in.
Amy Dufrane: So we are I think, Dean, you're spot on. I think organizations are looking at that recreation of training centers and creating.
Their own centers so that they can ensure that their employees, particularly you know, I mean, I just think about companies like PwC and Deloitte that are investing millions, [00:17:00] hundreds of millions of dollars in their training centers right now. And they're expanding them and what does that look like?
And because their employees are saying. We need more, we need to, we need more investment in us and to make sure that we're really, you know, our skills are sharp and we're delivering the best value to our customers.
Dean Stanberry: Yeah, not surprising with the consulting firms. I was quite surprised when AI really kind of came into being and all of a sudden we've got all these experts in AI.
Amy Dufrane: That's right. Everybody's an expert.
Host: IFMA's Knowledge Library is the largest digital collection of quality content specific to the built environment. Featuring hundreds of articles, case studies, research reports, videos, and templates, it has helped thousands of facility management professionals learn and leverage FM best practices. It's also 100 percent free to IFMA members.
Visit knowledgelibrary. ifma. org to learn [00:18:00] more.
Dean Stanberry: So we talked about, you know, the relationships between functions, FM and HR. So do you have any advice on how facility managers can go about forging a collaborative partnership with their HR team, you know, to improve You know, workplace wellness, well being, you know, those are the intersections.
I think where the functions come together.
Amy Dufrane: Yeah, really, this is such an interesting time that we're in. You look at how work is getting done and it's so different because of the impact that COVID has on our work perspective. There's a whole new, you know, sort of genre of people who are emerging, really figuring out how are people working.
How can we help them to work more? Effectively in their roles, what's the configuration they need from a technology perspective from a physical workplace perspective? And how do we make sure that we're setting up work? So that it's safe. HRCI, [00:19:00] we just did a webinar on how. How do we make sure that as, you know, sort of our climate change is occurring, how do we really look at those people who are, you know, their job requires them to be outside. How do we reduce risk for them? How do we make sure that they're in a place that I mean, obviously, some of these roles, they've got to be, you know, really out in the elements and so how can we create healthy environments for them to work in?
And so I think that this is where this synergy has to be hand and glove from between HR and FM. You know, in, in my case, I was responsible for our facilities and that reported in to me. So I was really digging in deep to look at how do we, how can we work better. together, but I think now, more so than ever I'm talking to more and more organizations that are reconfiguring their physical space because [00:20:00] how they have had it configured in the past is not conducive to the work that employees are saying we have a different kind of way that we're working now and a different way that we're collaborating with each other you know, people are on the road a lot more than they have been before. They're having to work in, an airport or in their car at their van as they're driving to the next job. How can we create spaces so that folks can work together and we're creating that space where somebody feels like my organization really cares about me. They care about how I'm getting work done and is this the comfortable space to work in? So I think that collaboration and synergy needs to continue to happen as we're rethinking that workspace. We're thinking about. You know, workplace safety we're thinking about risk mitigation.
And, you know, I think I, when I [00:21:00] was walking around the IFMA show last year I saw a I can't it was like a sled that you could get somebody who was in a wheelchair downstairs in the case of some sort of a building emergency. And I'm like, I had no idea something like that existed. We had a sled, but this is a really cool mechanical configuration.
I had you know, I want to see how it works. And had I known that. Oh, that would have been amazing for us to have that because we had somebody that was in a wheelchair who was on an upper floor and we were in Washington, D. C. and all the time and they're always something that happens with facilities and gosh, I wish that we had known that.
So I think that there's this way for facility managers to really help HR to tackle some of these problems and for HR to do the same. Right? I mean, to lean in and to help. And you're the expert from a facility management perspective. So I'd love to ask you that [00:22:00] question. How can HR better support?
You know, sort of that facility manager, what are the things that facility managers are asking for from HR that isn't getting back to HR professionals? Because I'd love to be able to share this with, you know, the HR community.
Dean Stanberry: Well, 1 of the things surprising things that came out of COVID as we are looking at it in the rear view mirror.
Is this sort of emerging trend. There's a heightened awareness of your indoor environment from workers.
So it's no longer, when we used to talk about. Indoor environmental quality was just air quality, but now we're looking at cleaning. We're looking and it also involves not only physical well being, but mental well being.
Those are skills that FM's have never had as part of their core competencies. It was not part of their responsibilities. But now, as we're looking at designing [00:23:00] and configuring and operating spaces. How do we lean into that? And that's where there's some, you know, help needed. I heard a statistic, this is a while ago now, that the number of people coming out of say graduating college or joining the workforce has a higher incidence of you know, mental health issues.
Yes. We're going to talk about a preexisting condition. Yeah. You know, didn't get help, you know, help from the parents, didn't get help from the school system, education system. Now it's the employers issue, but you know, it is what it is. We are now having to deal with those kinds of scenarios in order for work to occur.
So, I think that's something that's a new need. And on, on the flip side of that, on the HR side, you know, you need to learn the, those HR professionals need to learn a little bit more about, you know, the workplace environments and what is possible than they needed to know before. So I think if there's learning [00:24:00] on both sides that needs to occur so that we can a speak a common language, you know, speak the same language when we're talking about what can we do to make it better for the benefit of those occupants.
Amy Dufrane: Yes, it's so true and I think that we are seeing that your mental health statistic it is, I'm sure under inflated now, as we're seeing the magnitude of, you know, mental health, be even more. Of, you know, kind of falling in the domain of the employer to work around and work with and to try to you know, pull in resources to help when there are, mental health challenges, substance abuse disorder. I've been working with an organization all around sort of, substance abuse and and they're realizing, gosh, we, we did some research around this, but we need to make sure. We've got, we're pulling HR in, and we're having conversations around this.
So there's a, again, a lot more [00:25:00] to be uncovered and discovered around collaboration and all of those areas.
Dean Stanberry: Absolutely. Let's move into you know, the last question that we had here. I do have 1 that I want to bring back up before we leave, because it was something you started with that triggered a thought.
Do you have any advice for facility managers or in the hiring process? How are credentials viewed? And it's relatively recently that we're producing graduates with degrees in FM. And how can we get these mid career FM professionals? To continue to compete in that job market?
Amy Dufrane: Right? I think that's a great question.
And firstly, you know, I started the top of our discussion saying, I'm a learning junkie and I believe that anything I can do to inspire people to invest in themselves is a homerun. 100%. We've done some research and our approach. 5 decades of being around, we know that individuals who are getting certified [00:26:00]and this is without a degree or not.
So, individuals that are investing in themselves from a certification perspective, make more money, they are promoted faster than another person who isn't certified. Their supervisors report that they're more efficient and effective in their roles. They're happier in their jobs. They're excited to come to their jobs every day.
And we've done some research looking at it from an employer who has a handful more than 5 people who are certified. On their teams, and we're looking at this strictly from an HR perspective, but we know that people who organizations that have more than 5 people certified have better stock performance, better glass door ratings, and their revenues are higher than an organization that doesn't. So there's a value proposition, both from an individual and an organization to invest in getting people certified. Again, I take this from an HR perspective, but [00:27:00] as a hiring manager, so I talked to thousands of hiring managers every year, and they really look for individuals that are have that intellectual curiosity are continuing to advance themselves by putting and whatever letters they are behind their name and making sure that those letters have credibility, right? So you don't want to put a letter behind your name. That's just, you know, from someplace and Internet. You know, course that you took and it took 5 minutes. You really want an organization that has a strong brand who sees the value and credibility in certification.
You know, I think obviously I'm biased. You know, part of what we do is certification, but as I talk to hiring managers, they say, I want those folks that are investing in themselves. I want those people who believe that they're their best and most important resource, and that's what they're gonna invest in from a, from an individual perspective.
So I think [00:28:00] that hiring managers look for that. They, of course, look for degrees and some of these highly technical kinds of roles that are out there, they want to make sure that they're hiring people that know what they say they know. And I think, you know, although the higher education degree is great, I think having the validation from an external organization who has people that developed that certification who are doing the job, not brand new to the job, but they've been doing this for a number of years who are saying, you know, this person really does know what they say that they know, and they're going to add value to your organization. So, I feel like as we've got new folks that are coming into the workforce, those are going to be the people that the mid career people will be competing against.
And if they don't hold a certification and a person who's newer to the workforce does, you know, that may be the marker of hiring. We all see the job placements that say, either [00:29:00] required or preferred for certifications. And I think organizations that understand the value and the credibility that having a certification brings to their company, they're going to be more apt to hire those folks over somebody that doesn't.
So I think it's an important marker irregardless of what it is that you're doing even when you look at you know, technology, there's a number of certifications that are out there and there are always, you know, IT folks who are continuing to invest in getting those credentials because they, they know that they hold value and that the employer places a lot of credibility on those.
So, I think people should continue to invest in themselves. I'll say it over and over again.
Dean Stanberry: Lifelong learning. We've been preaching that mantra for a while now and saying, you know, this is a profession of lifelong learning. There's always something new coming out. And you know, if you choose to just be stagnant, then chances are you're left [00:30:00] behind.
Amy Dufrane: That's right. That is exactly right.
Dean Stanberry: One other little thought that you triggered when you first started talking. So one of the artifacts of, the old school organizations, you used to get mentored on being a manager, a supervisor, right? So even if you have a degree and you happen to take an HR or management class, I kind of equate that to it's like you can know all the rules of golf, but it doesn't matter until you get out and try to hit a ball.
Right?
Amy Dufrane: That's right. That's right.
Dean Stanberry: And the same thing applies here. If you're going to manage people, it's very different when you actually get into that role. And I have a book on my shelf that there's a quote in there that says. wants to be a leader. Nobody wants to be a manager. Right. And the thought being that management is equated to being bureaucratic.
And you know, there's not, that's not the fun part. You know, the fact is if you're in those roles, you have to do both. That's right. At some point, you have your leader hat on. Another point, you have your manager hat on. [00:31:00] Now you mentioned that you were doing some additional training. Is some of the training that HRCI is doing, is that touching on some of the leadership and management skills that you don't get anywhere else these days?
Amy Dufrane: Yes, they are. And we have new courses coming out all the time that are really pushing those folks who are, who need to know more about HR, who are not in. HR itself, and I think that as you're from an HR perspective we're seeing HR be much more strategic than ever before. They're really working to lean into the business and on the business function.
So some of those transactional responsibilities are falling to the manager to work on those things and to do those things. So those people managers, so they've got to know. What great H. R. looks like, because they're going to be challenged to make sure that they're doing those responsibilities [00:32:00] from from an H. R. perspective to ensure that they're coaching their employees that they're giving them professional development opportunities that they're ensuring that compensation is effectively managed that you're always setting those goals and making them smart goals so that it's not a smooshy goal, but it's really clear and what success looks like.
So. I think those are all things that that we look at and things that we're doing at HRCI to ensure that people managers can be more efficient and effective in what they do.
Dean Stanberry: Okay, well, I think we're at time. So is there any closing comments that you want to offer up to our IFMA members?
Amy Dufrane: Yeah, I'd love for them if they have an opportunity. We have a free webinar that we do. On Thursdays at 1 o'clock Eastern time we have up to 5000 folks that we've got that participate in the webinars. We've got folks from around the world and it's not just HR [00:33:00] focused. There are people management sorts of topics, so everything that we talk about you will learn something from.
So I encourage you to share in and participate when you can in our webinar series, it's Alchemizing HR, and you can learn more at HRCI.org.
Dean Stanberry: Great. Well, thank you very much for taking the time today.
This has been very enlightening and I'm excited to see what IFMA and HRCI can do together going forward.
Amy Dufrane: That sounds great.
Host: Thank you so much for listening. I hope you really enjoyed this episode. And as always, please don't forget to rate, review, and subscribe to the podcast for more incredible content.